Friday, June 29, 2012

Why Girls Seldom Drop Out



Watching this video clip, I think it's pretty obvious why no woman with half a brain would want to abandon the Orthodox Jewish community, where people date briefly without touching, marry young and stay married, and instead become a secular American girl.

I'll be the first to admit that relationships are difficult everywhere. As Sartre commented "Hell is other people". However certainly little could be worse than the insanity which most American young women put up with today.

43 comments:

Anonymous said...

Women are better than men in general. There are obviously more men in jail for every kind of crime, and certainly any kind of violent crime.

Women don’t drop out of any religion at the rates men do. We find that women are doing better than men in the workplace in almost every sector that does not require physical strength.

Maybe this is an argument for having intermarried Jewish men convert their wives? They would probably make some pretty good Jews.

Never did understand the phobia about conversion. Shiksas often make fine gers.

Tuvia

Also, nice touch with the Sartre (here in NYC, it is our unofficial motto.)

Dave said...

That is a good clip and I agree with your point here.

Even though we are not ultraorthodox I have been trying to convince my adult children to agree to a matchmaking service to save them this heartache.

There is much to be said for the social value of the "shiduch", even if it sometimes comes at a heavy price (in terms of discrimination) for the less fortunate in the heredi community.

jewish philosopher said...

It really seems bizarre that many American young women today seem content to live almost exactly like prostitutes, with this "hooking up" concept,

http://www.amazon.com/Unhooked-Young-Women-Pursue-Delay/dp/1594482845/

except that they don't get paid.

Perhaps in the new post-2005 world of Internet porn, this is their only hope of getting some male attention?

Dave said...

I think that this has been going on long before 2005. I would attribute it to sexual freedom in general, rather than porn in particular. In many cases it is the women who want casual sex, as much as the men.

jewish philosopher said...

I think given a choice, women really want to get married. When a woman sees an attractive man, deep down she's thinking "wedding gown".

The problem is, how to get there with today's single men.

"Hooking up" has only been used to mean casual sex for about the past decade, coincidentally since high speed home Internet access became available. Also, coincidentally, the term is very similar to the much earlier expression "hooking" meaning prostitution. Today, however, the value of sex seems to be so low that women often can't even ask for money.

Dave said...

"Today, however, the value of sex seems to be so low that women often can't even ask for money."

You're making an economic claim. However, basic economic analysis would seem to refute this from a free market perspective.

On one hand, you claim that porn stimulates the demand for "real" casual sex. This would "shift" the demand curve to the right and up, thus pushing up prices.

On the other hand, you claim that "loose" non-orthodox women make the supply of casual sex so plentiful, that the price is driven down to zero.

If this were the case, prostitutes would be unable to demand money, which is obviously not the case. The sex industry is thriving.

Second, if the women's supply of casual sex is so abundant, they are either willing participants because they want the sex, too, or they derive some other benefit from the relationship. In the latter case, rationally, they should be content to be in a Platonic relationship and allow the male partner to obtain sex through porn or other means.

The fact is, JP, that casual sex has been around for a long time, and increased since the sexual "revolution". Both men and women want it. There have always been prostitutes, mistresses and girlfriends. I doubt that porn makes any difference.

jewish philosopher said...

I'm not sure that sexual morality changed too much being 1970 and 2000. There may even have been a trend back to a more conservative approach with more respect for women. Remember the sexual harassment lawsuit hysteria of the 1990's?

http://www.legalzoom.com/legal-headlines/corporate-lawsuits/five-biggest-sexual-harassment-cases

Now things seem to be taking another nosedive.

It's not only my idea as an old prude religious fanatic that porn has made it a lot tougher for women to get sex. 

http://open.salon.com/blog/travis_darby/2009/05/26/has_porn_ruined_sex_for_everyone

http://jezebel.com/333148/how-about-you-dont-ask-to-come-on-my-face-on-the-first-date

Therefore women have had to lower their standards to a point that's closer and closer to straight up prostitution, except it has to be free, to compete with porn.

Hooking up is almost just hooking.

Dave said...

Can't say I visit those sites for my information.

I'm not disagreeing that its undesirable from a sociological perspective.

I'm just saying that your assumption that women are suffering and less happy now doesn't seem justified.
Hey, JP, I was man enough to agree with your post.
Would it kill you to say, "Dave, you made a good point and refuted my statement. I retract it."

jewish philosopher said...

I really do think that the recent (since about 2004) availability of broadband Internet has been the catalyst for women to become so desperate that they will engage in sex with men whom they have just met and may never see again. 

This practice, known politely as  "hooking up", is physically and emotionally dangerous for woman in many ways besides being just degrading and humiliating.

jewish philosopher said...

 Far from having to fend off porn-crazed young men, young women are worrying that as mere flesh and blood, they can scarcely get, let alone hold, their attention.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

Dave said...

That seems to be a thoughtful article.

Both men and women have a hand in the problem and both suffer, ultimately.

jewish philosopher said...

The Brave New World seems at the moment to be more like a big, sad mess.

Dave said...

The paradox is that people get used to anything. So if you look at happiness surveys-- most people are happy. I'm not sure about the demographic breakdown by age and marital status.

jewish philosopher said...

It's hard to know what's going on in people's minds. The happiest, or at least allegedly happiest, places have the most suicides.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/happiest-places-post-highest-suicide-rates/

Suicide has been trending up in the US

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/4SR99.shtml

Clinical depression has been increasing dramatically.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201001/the-dramatic-rise-anxiety-and-depression-in-children-and-adolescents-is-it

Drug overdose deaths, primarily due to prescription pain killers, are far more common now than in previous years

http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/2008/03/t20080312b.html

Alcoholic psychosis and cirrhosis of the liver have apparently been trending upward for decades

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/surveillance89/HDS07.pdf

Homelessness, often a sign of mental illness, substance abuse and alienation from family, seems to be growing.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/526/homeless-facts.html

Is the United States trending toward being a nation of miserable skid row bums?

ksil said...

I wish someone would make a video like this for orthodox jews!

start off with meeting someone at the age of 19 or 20 if you're a girl, married within 6 months, baby before the first annivesary, 5 kids before you hit 30, poverty, absent husband (cuz he is learning or at mincha) etc

the list is long, but it would be WAY more accuurate than this video, which left out a lot of the good parts of being in a relationship

jewish philosopher said...

How about the girl in this video?

At age 30, single mom, dead beat dad.

Age 40, dealing with emotionally disturbed fatherless teenager, who is probably being abused by crazy boyfriend.

Age 50, buys cat, drinks heavily.

ksil said...

straw man

ksil said...

also, this video is highly inappropriate. I am glad my k9 blocked it. i was able only to see it using my password, which only my spouse holds.

jewish philosopher said...

No, YOUR comment is loaded with straw. I would call it a tissue paper man.

I'm not happy with the language in this video clip, however I think that the message is of overriding importance.

ksil said...

there are other ways to make a point without pritzus and nivul peh.

and if you had an internet filter, you would not have access to it at all.

my point was not a straw man, orthodox women dont start looking for a spouse at the age of 19? they don tuse birth contril so they have many children, right away before there can handle them or afford them. do you deny any of that?

jewish philosopher said...

What's so bad about getting married young and having a half dozen kids when you're under 35?

Most American women can't find a husband and when they want to have kids, they very often can't because they're too old and/or  they've messed themselves up with STDs so they die alone.

It's probably true that orthodox Jews are on the average lower income per capita than average Americans, but money can't buy happiness. Lindsay Lohan's pretty rich; so what?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-and-sensibility/201011/five-addiction-prescriptions-actress-lindsay-lohan

Anonymous said...

The single best kiruv angle is the “get frum, get married” one. For men who are approaching thirty five, and women approaching thirty – you will never see people quicker to accept Torah from Mt. Sinai.

Frankly, even if they had some doubts – the marriage imperative trumps their skepticism.

Reminds me of Ghostbusters, when a desperate Winston Zeddemore is applying to be a Ghostbuster. From Wikipedia:

“Questioned extensively during his application by Janine Melnitz as to whether he believed in a large number of supernatural occurrences and beings (such as UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster and the theory of Atlantis among others), Zeddemore replied, ‘If there's a steady paycheck in it, I'll believe anything you say.’”

Substitute “marriage and family” for “steady paycheck” and it is kiruv’s best hook.

I don’t blame young Jews at all for falling for this angle. Though I think kiruv organizations are sneaky about it – holding out the promise of a marriage and family if you become a believer. Knowing that marriage and family is the bait and talking to vulnerable young folks who are having trouble in that area. I like a bunch of kiruv rabbis – but I think most kiruv techniques truly suck.

Tuvia

jewish philosopher said...

The single best kefirah angle is the “get frei, get laid” one. For boys and girls in their teens – you will never see people quicker to reject Torah from Mt. Sinai.

Frankly, even if they had some doubts – the promiscuity imperative trumps their skepticism.

Anonymous said...

One key to living a successful frei life is self-restraint and a moral code.

The sages say that there is a kind of morality that man develops independent of the Torah.

I see evidence for that assertion in many people I know.

Tuvia

jewish philosopher said...

I've actually found only one documented case of a decent atheist, and he regretted being an atheist.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/01/chandra-good-atheist.html

Which makes sense, since what's the point of being an atheist if you aren't a lowlife?

Anonymous said...

Not really talking about atheists. I’m not an atheist. I think Judaism is man made (highest likelihood), but not an atheist.

There are apologetics for Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. I personally have read good, common sense, apologetics for Christianity. I’ve read stuff – “amazing facts” – about Mohammed that were interesting.

I can point you to a website for Christianity – I'm sure I can find it if I root around the web a while. Maybe you will go back to being a Lutheran! But I don’t want your rav sore at me!

Tuvia

jewish philosopher said...

"Maybe you will go back to being a Lutheran!"

Been there, done that.

Actually, in the 19th century, it was quite commonplace for Jews, even quite orthodox ones, to become Christians.  Some 2,000 European Jews converted to Christianity every year during the 19th century, but in the 1890s the number was running closer to 3,000 per year, — 1,000 in Austria Hungary (Galizian Poland), 1,000 in Russia (Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, and Lithuania), 500 in Germany (Posen), and the remainder in the English world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_Judaism

Isn't remarkable how many Jews were baptized at a time and place when baptism was the passport to European society, as Heinrich Heine put it?

http://www.esra-magazine.com/blog/post/the-mendelssohns---moses,-abraham-and-felix

Today, one almost never hears of someone from an orthodox home baptizing.

Anonymous said...

This video clip and the additional links you posted are completely out of line for a supposedly frum Jew. Stop thinking about porn so much and think about your wife. She deserves better.

-from an OTD girl who is constantly appalled at the hypocrisy of frummies like you.

Dave said...

The reasons for conversion were obvious, as are the other cases in history of mass conversions-- force or convenience. Nowadays conversions represent an insignificant proportion of followers of any of the major religions.

" what's the point of being an atheist if you aren't a lowlife?"

What's the point of being a believer if you aren't a parasite?

Of course I don't mean that, its just as absurd as your statement.

jewish philosopher said...

"This video clip and the additional links you posted are completely out of line for a supposedly frum Jew."

Of course I could find many articles and video clips made by Orthodox rabbis which make the same point, however would you take them as seriously? I'm presenting you with testimony from secular women themselves that their lives are miserable.

Secondly, speaking of hypocricy, how do you feel about Richard Dawkins?

http://skepchick.org/2011/07/dear-richard-dawkins/

Or for that matter Christopher Hitchens who dumped his pregnant first wife for another woman?

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/media/features/868/index5.html

Or atheist John Lennon who brutally dumped his first wife and mother of his child for another woman?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon#Cynthia_Lennon

And incidentally, just out of curiosity, as Sarah Palin might put it, How's That Atheism Stuff Working Out For Ya?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y02iZcTjHo

"What's the point of being a believer if you aren't a parasite?"

As you well know, plenty of people get social services without believing in God and plenty of people who believe in God don't get social services. Atheists do however seem to exhibit an alarmingly consistent pattern of selfish, dishonest, pleasure seeking behavior, as is well documented.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2007/05/godlessness-is-not-great-how-lack-of.html

Anonymous said...

I don't really care about all those people you mentioned- you are supposed to espouse and demonstrate higher values higher spirituality- not posting videos about blow jobs!

And yes, an honest person will consider the content no matter where it came from- rabbis or not.

As an aside, everyone agrees that the dating scene is horrible in the secular world, no chiddush there. But the frum way is not that much better. Many girls get married too young and too quickly, they don't know the boy, then they end up stuck in a miserable marriage. Or they don't marry at all and become pitied old maids. And the shidduchim process is fraught with many of the same concerns. Boys will ask for photos of the girl and her measurements before they agree to meet her. I see these posts on frum women's websites all the time. You are uninformed about the realities of the frum dating scene.

jewish philosopher said...

People who are secular who themselves and critique the secular world obviously have more credibility than a rabbi would.

If the CEO of McDonald's says McDonald's stinks and the CEO of Burger King says McDonald's stinks, who would you take more seriously?

Actually I think the unusual thing about me is that I really have seen both sides and therefore I can make a more intelligent comparison, while other people are always imagining that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

Arranged marriages by the way have been gaining some good publicity lately.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=arranged-marriages-can-be-real-love-10-03-11

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363176/Why-arranged-marriage-likely-develop-lasting-love.html

http://www.amazon.com/First-Comes-Marriage-Relationship-Marriages/dp/1416561722

Eclipse said...

In the secular world, women who never marry are not viewed as "pitied old maids." Not all women want to get married or have kids. I never wanted either one, and contrary to your claim, I am not lonely and don't plan to die alone. Some of us want the freedom to pursue our dreams and don't want to be tied down to another person. We have lots of friends and extended family; in fact, many single people have formed our own "families" who spend every holiday and birthday together. The Earth has seven billion people, and not everyone needs to procreate. I see myself as the luckiest woman in the world, and I wouldn't change a single thing about my life.

jewish philosopher said...

"In the secular world, women who never marry are not viewed as "pitied old maids.""

They actually are.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/people-celebrates-5-years-of-pitying-poor-poor-jen,37364/

"I never wanted either one"

Sour grapes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sour_grapes

Ironmistress said...

What's so bad about getting married young and having a half dozen kids when you're under 35?

One magical word which apparently means nothing to you:

Freedom.

I chose to live a life of my own, create my own career, marry on my own will at the age I choose and have as many or as few kids I choose (2 altogether) and not be a domestic slave and breeding machine chained to the tent pole.

That was my choice. And I demand you to respect it.

Ironmistress said...

I married in the age when I considered myself to be mature enough to do it. Not when I began to menstruate.

I married the man I had loved for ten years. Not the one my parents would have forced me to.

I have given birth to two wonderful children. Not to a litter of brats.

The younger one marries, the greater the odds to divorce. Likewise the shorter the courting and engagement period before the marriage, the more likely the marriage is to fail.

Why exactly it is so repulsive to let women choose on themselves?

jewish philosopher said...

Everybody can choose. But secular American women don't even have the option of a normal family life.

Ironmistress said...

Yes they do. Yet many of them just decide otherwise - or play their cards stupidly.

Anonymous said...

"Everybody can choose. But secular American women don't even have the option of a normal family life."

Its the men who get the bum end of the deal. All the women being whores makes it very hard to find a woman worth marrying.

Anonymous said...

"Boys will ask for photos of the girl...before they agree to meet her."

So? That's obvious. If you are going to consider marrying someone, you want to make sure that you can at least stand to look at them for the rest of your life.

Anonymous said...

Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and go "I'm a dick, I'm a dick, I'm a dick,"
Yep, you go on about appropriateness but this is video is inappropriate for your sheltered orthodox audience.
We don't leave because of sex, you idiot. We leave because of reasons that you gave up - freedom and the right to make choices for ourselves.
Girls don't leave?
We do. And we smile in the face of assholes like you.

jewish philosopher said...

And I'm sure Robert Hanssen's betrayal was all about idealism, nothing to do with money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen

jewish philosopher said...

And for someone with no interest in sex you seem to be focusing a lot of interest on genitals and anuses.