Sunday, June 03, 2012

Fighting Heretics: FAQ

[somebody's got to do it]

Aren't we commanded to love all other Jews, including heretics?


No. The universally revered Rabbi Yisroel Meir Kagan in his book Chafetz Chaim (1873) writes in the Laws of Evil Speech 8:5 that Judaism mandates us to hate, insult and disgrace any Jew who denies the divine origin of any part of the Pentateuch or the legal portions of the Talmud.


Are there other rabbis today who are preaching or practicing such behavior?


Yes. The Yad L'Achim agency in Israel conducts a very active program to harass Jewish Christians who are attempting to convince other Jews to convert to Christianity and this is endorsed by many respected rabbis. Jewish skeptic bloggers are no better than Christian missionaries and in fact may be worse. Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman wrote "now an evil has sprung up worse than idolatry and this is atheism".


How has the Internet created a small but tragic wave of Jewish heresy?


The Internet has made pornography easily, privately and universally available. This in turn has led to sex addictions which have then led Jews to convert to atheism. The Talmud Niddah 13b insightfully comments: Rab stated "A man who wilfully causes erection should be banned because he incites his desires upon himself". R. Ammi stated: "He is called a transgressor, because such is the art of the evil inclination: Today it incites a man to do this, tomorrow it incites him to that and the next day it incites him to worship idols and he proceeds to worship them." In our times, atheism has replaced idolatry. Imagine the effect it would have on society if cocaine were to be legalized, it would be cheaply and conveniently available by mail order to anyone with a credit card and furthermore people would on a weekly basis receive free sample packets of cocaine in the mail from drug companies. This is basically what the Internet has done, however regarding pornography not cocaine, something which at least from an Orthodox Jewish point of view is probably equally harmful. Every individual, family and community must cope with and battle with this new reality. I hope that my blog can make some small contribution.


Why do I occasionally use 
crude slang terms when criticizing Jewish heretics?



This is done to emphasize that the motives which these people have are in no way intellectual or idealistic, rather their choices are based on the most degrading, debased and disgusting impulses.



Aren't people who accuse others of something usually guilty of it themselves?


Not to my knowledge. I don't think that law enforcement officials for example are typically thieves and murderers. I  don't think that child protection service workers are typically child abusers. I don't think that drug enforcement agents are typically drug  addicts.


Do you advocate using violence to fight Jewish heretics?


No. I don't advocate, have never advocated and have never been guilty of doing anything illegal to fight Jewish heretics. I have however been myself victimized by Jewish heretics who have contacted my wife, my rabbi, my employer, law enforcement officials, child protection services, Google and others to make complaints. I  have also received violent threats. In addition most Jewish heretic bloggers do not allow me to comment on their blogs, although I  welcome their comments on my blog.


Doesn't criticizing Jewish heretics violate the blogger.com content policy concerning hate speech?


This policy seems to be interpreted very liberally by blogger.com. This blog for example has been sitting out  there for years with apparently no problem from blogger.com. Apparently blogger.com does not want to become an arbitrator of political and religious beliefs.

93 comments:

Ironmistress said...

Phariseans are alive as ever. And just as bigoted and intolerant as 2,000 years ago. Not a single bit has changed.

The Christians learned the hard way the consequences of persecution of heretics and religious warfare in the 17th century. After the devastation of Central Europe, 30 years of continuous warfare and absolutely nothing gained they learned to tolerate each other.

This is a lesson so far unlearned by the Jews. A lesson so hard to learn, so painful to internalize and so easily forgotten.

jewish philosopher said...

It's true that we orthodox Jews haven't scaled the great spiritual heights of the frequently alcoholic, suicidal and homicidal Finns who fought with the Nazis in the second world war, to a limited degree.

ah-pee-chorus said...

Rabbi Yisroel Meir Kagan in his book Chafetz Chaim (1873) writes in the Laws of Evil Speech 8:5 that Judaism mandates us to hate, insult and disgrace any Jew who denies the divine origin of any part of the Pentateuch or the legal portions of the Talmud.

He also said a jewish doctor may not violate shabbos to save the life of a goy.

further confirmation that the chofetz chaim was an asshole.

jewish philosopher said...

"further confirmation that the chofetz chaim was an asshole"

You mean as opposed to atheists, who kill people and eat them.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/07/atheists-in-their-own-words.html

According to atheism everything is permitted, provided the police don't catch you, and no one need feel guilty about their behavior since we have no free will and our brain chemistry made us do it.

Incidentally, why wouldn't a gentile be able to find a gentile physician to treat him in an emergency situation? Has there ever been even one documented case of a gentile who was suffering from some medical emergency and the only physician available to respond was an Orthodox Jewish doctor sitting at his Sabbath table with his family around the corner? This is just anti-orthodox propaganda.

Ksil said...

If we only knew what heretic means

Everyone has there own definition. People make it up.

Proof that the torah and hashem are man made.

What does porn have to do with heretics? That last paragraph is kinda creepy

Par for the course

jewish philosopher said...

I state in the post what heretic means.

And I understand how the fact that I have completely blown open the real basis for the Orthodox drop out problem would be very creepy to those said drop outs.

It's like when the press figured out who was really behind the Watergate cover up.

Scary, right?

Dave said...

Every claim on this post (except perhaps the last two) provides its own disproof.

For example, Yad' L'achim focuses specifically on a group of missionaries, and in no way advocate aggressive behavior towards skeptical Jews.

As far as the Chafetz Chayim, it is well known that his positions on many things are severe, and many poskim to not advocate blanket following him.

As far as "conversions to atheism", as far as I know there was no internet porn during the haskala.

Anonymous said...

"You mean as opposed to atheists, who kill people and eat them."

JP - So, is it the case that the only reason you don't kill and eat people because the Torah tells you not to?

While this a seperate point, don't you find it interesting that it's the States in the US that are more relgious that seem to impose capital punishment much more often compared to the more secular States that still allow it? Per your world view, shouldn't the more secular (perhaps even athiest States) be the ones mudering as many as they can. Odd, isn't it?

jewish philosopher said...

"Yad' L'achim focuses specifically on a group of missionaries"

And so am I.

"As far as the Chafetz Chayim, it is well known that his positions on many things are severe, and many poskim to not advocate blanket following him."

I think you may be a little misinformed. He is actually revered as one of the few greatest rabbis of the past two centuries. Generally his word is law, period. I'm not aware of anyone critiquing this ruling.

"As far as "conversions to atheism", as far as I know there was no internet porn during the haskala."

The hasklala ended about 130 years ago.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Haskalah.html

I'm writing about drop outs today. The environment, pressures, scale of the problem, motivations, etc are entirely different. Brooklyn 2012 is a lot different than Odessa 1850.

"So, is it the case that the only reason you don't kill and eat people because the Torah tells you not to?"

Cannibalism actually was universal in primitive cultures, and why should an atheist have any problem with that? Aren't humans merely animals, not fundamentally different than cows or sheep?

"don't you find it interesting that it's the States in the US that are more relgious that seem to impose capital punishment much more often compared to the more secular States that still allow it?"

I think that some atheists feel a need to prove that they are good people in spite of own personal terrible cruelty. Therefore they make a point of defending the underdogs, who ever that underdog may be: convicted killers, endangered whales, Palestinians, homosexuals, etc.

The classic example, but I'm sure I could find many, is John Lennon.

He was of course an atheist

http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/John_Lennon

He treated his first wife like dirt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Lennon#Divorce

while campaigning for world peace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Give_Peace_a_Chance

So we often find selfish, cruel atheists with very public bleeding hearts for all sorts of strange causes.

Anonymous said...

I asked

"So, is it the case that the only reason you don't kill and eat people because the Torah tells you not to?"

and you answer:

"Cannibalism actually was universal in primitive cultures, and why should an atheist have any problem with that? Aren't humans merely animals, not fundamentally different than cows or sheep?"

Would you mind answering the question I asked you?

However, the fact that you are unable to comprehend why an athiest would have an issue with cannibalism tends to suggest that you would not, were you an athiest. Which perhaps answers my question.

It also says a whole lot about your morals and human compassion, or lack thereof.

Dave said...

"Generally his word is law, period. I'm not aware of anyone critiquing this ruling."

As proof that his rulings are not uniformly followed, I submit YOU as evidence to the contrary. If you followed him strictly, you should not be reading secular books or internet, nor communicating with women on things of a sexual nature, nor posting some of the images that have appeared on this blog.

With regards to treating non-Jews on Shabbat, even Heredi poskim now allow it (or even require it). This shows that the mishneh brurah has to be applied in context.

The rest of your claims are so full of red herrings and straw men that there isnt room in one comment to respond. Like, what the f-k does cannabalism have to do with anything?

"And so am I."

So since what they do is different, don't use Yad Lachim as a proof of rabbinical support for what you do.

"The hasklala ended about 130 years ago"

And I am saying that your drawing conclusions about cause and effect are fallacious and confuse association with causation. Its like saying that Pringles cause atheism, because since the advent of Pringles, atheism has increased, and atheists eat more Pringles.

Since abandonment of religion in general and Judaism in particular has been going on for a long time, it requires a great deal of scholarship and analysis of history and sociology to understand it. (Which I believe you lack, since as far as I know, most of your education has been acquired on the internet).

John Lennon-- hypocrites are nothing new. Its a fallacious argument to generalize.

Ironmistress said...

JP, given to the track record of the Israelis, I wouldn't be so sure.

On what comes to fraternizing with the Nazis, the Stern gang is a chapter of its own. Mind you, the Soviets were exactly just as evil to the dot of 'i' as were the Nazis. It is just that the enemy of your enemy is your friend - and we kicked the Nazis out this country as well 1944-1945.

All in all, there aren't so many Jews in the world that religious schisms and internal persecutions were a good idea.

Ironmistress said...

"further confirmation that the chofetz chaim was an asshole"

You mean as opposed to atheists, who kill people and eat them.


This is a straw man. And it is not a good discussion technique.

Ironmistress said...

Incidentally, why wouldn't a gentile be able to find a gentile physician to treat him in an emergency situation? Has there ever been even one documented case of a gentile who was suffering from some medical emergency and the only physician available to respond was an Orthodox Jewish doctor sitting at his Sabbath table with his family around the corner? This is just anti-orthodox propaganda.

This is again a reason why secular, non-religious laws based on secular philosophy and ethics are always better than religious ones.

In secular philosophy, human life is the highest judicial good and saving a human life goes before all other activities. Saving a human life is a higher judicial norm than fulfilling religious formalities.

In Finland, if a doctor refuses to treat an emergency patient because of Sunday, Sabbath or whatever the Islamic holiday might be, he or she may be prosecuted from gross negligence and malpractice. Even a complete layperson can be prosecuted from gross negligence in a similar situation.

Secular philosophy and ethics are based on clear value hierarchy and judicial norm hierarchy - not on arbitrary sayings of an authority.

jewish philosopher said...

"It also says a whole lot about your morals and human compassion, or lack thereof."

The only morality an atheist has is: If it feels good, do it, provided you won't get arrested.

The concept of ethics from empathy I have debunked here.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2011/05/ethics-from-empathy.html

"If you followed him strictly, you should not be reading secular books or internet, nor communicating with women on things of a sexual nature, nor posting some of the images that have appeared on this blog."

Or allowing your comments to be posted, you might add. I'm not sure that's true however. Could you provide sources?

"With regards to treating non-Jews on Shabbat, even Heredi poskim now allow it (or even require it)."

Some sources regarding where Rabbi Kagan's ruling is overruled?

In any case, without debating the pro and cons of Rabbi Kagan's thousands of legal rulings, the point is that my animosity towards Jewish skeptic bloggers does rest on a rock solid rabbinical basis; it's not just my own personal eccentricity.

"And I am saying that your drawing conclusions about cause and effect are fallacious and confuse association with causation."

In behavioral sciences, proving causality is complicated

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8684235/How-to-Prove-Causality

but I think I've done an adequate job under the circumstances.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html

It's like following a plane crash - the FAA would try to the determine the cause to the best of it's ability under the circumstances in order to avert future tragedies. Surely just giving up and saying "We aren't even going to bother guessing." would be foolish negligence.

"Since abandonment of religion in general and Judaism in particular has been going on for a long time"

Reviewing Jewish history you will find that every era has had it's own temptations, renegades and traitors. Sadly, even the Holocaust could probably not have succeeded had Jewish traitors not actively collaborated with the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenrat#The_role_of_the_Judenr.C3.A4te_in_the_Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)

"John Lennon-- hypocrites are nothing new."

But among atheists, so remarkably common. I can cite Christopher Hitchens, who dumped his first wife while pregnant with their second child for another woman

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/media/features/868/index5.htm

while at the same time ranting against circumcision as genital mutilation

http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/U93ZiR692l4

even after physicians have advocated it as therapeutic

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/health/policy/24circumcision.html

And these are the nice, Western atheists. I'm not even going to go into the Communist leaders who while sympathizing with the "workers" worked millions to death in labor camps.

"All in all, there aren't so many Jews in the world that religious schisms and internal persecutions were a good idea."

Shunning is common to many religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning

"This is again a reason why secular, non-religious laws based on secular philosophy and ethics are always better than religious ones."

Such as the Nuremberg Laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

or Article 58 (RSFSR Penal Code)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58_(RSFSR_Penal_Code)

In the United States, I don't believe that a physician has a legal obligation to treat an emergency patient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue#Common_law

ksil said...

"The only morality an atheist has is"

straw man

you define a heretic in the post? no you dont.

please tell us EXACTLY what a heretic is according to all opinions

jewish philosopher said...

"straw man"

I think you're misunderstanding that term

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

but anyway, go ahead and prove me wrong.

"you define a heretic in the post? no you dont."

any Jew who denies the divine origin of any part of the Pentateuch or the legal portions of the Talmud

That's what the Chofetz Chaim writes and I think that's a good start.

Dave said...

I will return to my theory of mind idea.

I can't prove this, but it seems to me that if you had theory of mind, you would understand, like everybody else who visits this blog, that your ranting, arguments, claims and "proofs" have no influence whatsoever in the direction of your stated purpose.

Certainly no skeptic would be convinced or harassed, no person sitting on the fence would be persuaded. and no religious person will be influenced to adopt the strategies you suggest. Believing otherwise is delusional, JP. Don't compare yourself to Yad LAchim.

I know this like you know you are conscious.

Regardless of how airtight you think your logic is, you haven't a clue as to how real people think, except maybe yourself.

So if the blog is just a form of ventilation to vent your hate against various groups, fine. But then, admit, that's all it is. Just the hate filled rantings of a frustrated homophobic crackpot on the margins of religious society.

ah-pee-chorus said...

You mean as opposed to atheists, who kill people and eat them.

i know some atheists thats have never kiiled anyone. others have killed but not eaten their victims.
i also know of a frum jew, levi aron, who killed and dismembered a young boy. i guess judaism causes killing and dismembering.

According to atheism everything is permitted, provided the police don't catch you,

no, thats charedism with regard to US laws.

and no one need feel guilty about their behavior since we have no ....

.....halachic obligation to be honest in business with goyim, and its OK to cheat on taxes (just ask the spinka rav who spent time in the clinka, and all the yeshivos involved in charity -tax fraud).

He treated his first wife like dirt

and abraham treated hagar and his son ishmael worse than dirt. i guess monotheism leads to wife and child abuse.

i love the JP style of debate. ignore what you dont like and generalize whenever it helps your cause. i'm having fun.

Anonymous said...

This view of heresy as a negative is problematic.

In this view, our understanding of the Torah as an anthology compiled over hundreds of years is necessarily wrong.

But the Torah seems to be an anthology – and upon a close reading appears to be the product of hundreds of years of Near East wisdom writings.

So it does not appear to be divine to us today.

So we cannot call it heresy when the Torah is “de-mystified” in our age.

Now, if moshiach comes within the next 228 years, and forty years after, the righteous dead from all the generations are resurrected (the next openly supernatural act according to the rabbis), well – JP – you were right.

And if it does not happen, you were wrong.

I only wish we had 228 days left, not 228 years.

Would be fascinating countdown for us both.

Tuvia

jewish philosopher said...

"I can't prove this, but it seems to me that if you had theory of mind, you would understand, like everybody else who visits this blog, that your ranting, arguments, claims and "proofs" have no influence whatsoever in the direction of your stated purpose. "

I can't prove this, but it seems to me that if you had theory of mind, you would understand, like everybody else who visits this blog, that my arguments, claims and proofs have significantly influenced many people in the direction of my stated purpose. 

"Just the hate filled rantings of a frustrated homophobic crackpot on the margins of religious society. "

If you read Jewish skeptic comments closely, you'll find that the only people who believe that my writings conflict with mainstream orthodoxy are people who know little or nothing about mainstream orthodoxy. People who have grown up in Brooklyn or Monsey for example never make that claim. It's amazing how some people read a couple of books and are instant experts on a global movement including millions of people.

"i know some atheists thats have never kiiled anyone."

Yet.

"levi aron, who killed and dismembered a young boy"

Perfect example. He was a secret atheist.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2011/08/baby-killer-and-secret-atheist.html

"no, thats charedism with regard to US laws."

Our crime rate is very low actually.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

"halachic obligation to be honest in business with goyim, and its OK to cheat on taxes "

And Gentiles are more honest?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_scandals

What type of Jew is Martha Stewart?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Stewart#Stock_trading_case_and_conviction

"and abraham treated hagar and his son ishmael worse than dirt."

You only had to go back 4,000 years, and prior to the revelation of the Torah, to find that tidbit. How many 20th century rabbis have left their wives and children to "upgrade" to a different wife? Or how many have organized mass suicide cults like the atheist Jim Jones did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Deaths_in_Jonestown

"In this view, our understanding of the Torah as an anthology compiled over hundreds of years is necessarily wrong."

Which it is.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/12/documentary-hypothesis-critique.html

jewish philosopher said...

Regarding this idea that Jews are lacking "theory of mind", I think it's interesting to point out that this seems to be following a pattern.

Christians insisted that Jews were possessed by devils.

"My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

Athiests declare us to be insane.

In The God Delusion, Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that belief in a personal god qualifies as a delusion, which he defines as a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence. He is sympathetic to Robert Pirsig's statement in Lila that "when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion


So, when someone presents evidence you can't refute, you simply pronounce him insane, mentally disabled or possessed by devils. That's surely an ironclad argument.

ah-pee-chorus said...

i see youre censoring the comments. a couple of mine werent posted. so i'm done here. if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen.

ah-pee-chorus said...

i see. so you can say the most vile, hateful and disgusting things regarding those who are honest and brave enough to accept the reality that your torah and mesorah are human inventions.
but if i dare to speak the truth in refuting your nonsense, you decide not to post it. youre a coward, on top of being seen as a kook by just about everyone.
i wont be participating in a forum where the one advantage you have-that its your blog- is used to decide what you choose not to respond to. i understand your fear. i smell it.

ah-pee-chorus said...

i'm more jewish than you. and i'm sure i can make a layning on a blatt gemara much better than you.

jewish philosopher said...

You aren't Jewish, are you? You're a white supremacist posing as a Jew.

jewish philosopher said...

Don't believe it. There's something fishy about you and all you're "asshole", "abraham", "ishmael", etc shtick.

ah-pee-chorus said...

believe what you want. its what you base your life on. would you have liked it better if i said 'avrum', avraham, or yishmael, yishmoyel.
gay kocken offen yum.

ah-pee-chorus said...

who did you con into giving you s'micha? and what type do you have?

Anonymous said...

I have now asked you twice to answer the following question

"So, is it the case that the only reason you don't kill and eat people because the Torah tells you not to?"

For some reason, you are only willing to answer this question by referring to what you think atheists feel.

Why are you scared to answer this question? Does the honest response frighten you? Or, does it go against the theories by which you live your life?

So, please, for the third time, can you please directly answer the question. Please don't again answer by reference you what you "think" atheists do or should feel or do. Those answers are pointless. Just keep it simple and answer the question about yourself. It will make for a much more enlightening discussion.

jewish philosopher said...

"gay kocken offen yum"

Wow, I'm really impressed. You're even checking out Yiddish obscenities. You know I have google also.

http://www.bubbygram.com/yiddishglossary.htm

Did you know - Julius Streicher also combed the pages of the Talmud and the Old Testament in search of passages which could paint their ancient Jewish authors as harsh or cruel, a practice which continues to this day among anti-Semites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Streicher#The_rise_of_Der_St.C3.BCrmer

Does that sound familiar, hmm?

I'm sure you're just as Jewish as Streicher was. And what better way to ridicule Jew than posing as a Jew on Jewish blogs? Clever, right? No need to expose yourself as an antisemite racist lunatic with a second grade education. No, here you're a respectable Hasidic rebel! Very nice.

"So, please, for the third time, can you please directly answer the question."

Atheists can do and will do anything, with no guilt or remorse or fear of God and were I an atheist I would obviously do the same.

ah-pee-chorus said...

more comments not posted. you didnt like when i asked who you conned into giving you s'micha?
did you make that up? who did your conversion? did they kill themselves yet?
loser.

jewish philosopher said...

I'll start posting your comments when you either make it possible to verify your identity or you change your nickname to "Julius Streicher".

I don't like fakes.

Anonymous said...

"Atheists can do and will do anything, with no guilt or remorse or fear of God and were I an atheist I would obviously do the same."

Whilst not a direct answer to my question, it seems that you are saying that were it not for your belief in God, you would become, or at the very least would have no issue with becoming, a murderer and a cannibal.

For the sake of your family and those around you, I hope you continue to believe in God.

While I'm not a psychologist, there must a named condition for someone with such a complete lack of an innate sense of compassion. You should get help. You are dangerous.

To be clear, I don't mean that as an insult. I mean it out of genuine concern for those around you (although if I am an atheist, you will not understand how I could have such a concern).

Dave said...

"were I an atheist I would obviously do the same"

Thank you for your honesty as revealing yourself to be a sociopath. Even better than my lack of theory of mind idea.

BTW I did not say the Jews lack theory of mind, I said that YOU lack it, and from your response it is clear that you don't even know what it is.

jewish philosopher said...

Atheists desperately grasp on to this fantasy that people are naturally ethical and moral and therefore "you don't need God to be good".

If the savagery of a secularized 20th century hasn't proven that false, then nothing will. This is called "denial".

http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/ss/defensemech_3.htm

As far as "theory of mind" goes, I guess criticizing people who disagree with you as mentally defective sounds a little more sophisticated than the earlier practice of saying that devils possessed them, but not really by that much.

Dave said...

"I guess criticizing people who disagree with you as mentally defective "

Sorry, JP, but you incriminate yourself by saying that were it not for the Torah you would kill and eat people.

And, I didn't say that people are naturally moral. But people have a conscience, except sociopaths and narcissists.

The rest will operate based on self interest. And an organized society will keep people in check. No Torah needed.

jewish philosopher said...

"people have a conscience"

Only as long as they possess some vestige of monotheistic beliefs, as I explain.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/12/always-let-your-conscience-be-your.html

Dave said...

Also, there is well known cheating problem. Some people, even those who are not psychopaths, will try to bend the rules. And religious people are no different in this regard.

Ironmistress said...

Martin Luther had good personal reasons to write as he did.

He was cheated by certain Jews who helped him on translating the Bible from Hebrew to German. It was all personal. Luther was completely fluent on Hebrew and Aramaic, and was able to read both Talmud and other Jewish texts in the original language. He pointed out how many of the berakhot actually were Pagan blessings and curses in Hebraic guise. Luther knew Greek philosophy well enough to find the parallels. Mind you, many modern time Jewish writers write of Christians with similar expressions.

On what comes to Julius Streicher, it is an achievment on itself to become hated both by own side and enemies. If the Allied had not hanged him, Nazis would have.

Most people are ethical and moral by default. It is just that there are narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths amongst us who aren't.

All in all, there aren't so many Jews in the world that they could afford schisms, sectarianism and persecutions amongst themselves. Such means will only accelerate assimilation. In that respect Jews should really look at Christians, Hindus and Buddhists as examples on "how to live peacefully with sectarians while disagreeing with dogmae". Muslims are bad examples: Shi'ites and Sunnites are at each others' throats.

Karma is always stronger than dogma anyway.

Dave said...

"Only as long as they possess some vestige of monotheistic beliefs, as I explain..

That claim has no scientific basis whatsoever. Even 5 year olds have a conscience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscience

And, btw, there are religious sociopaths, although they might not be serial killers. They might be tax cheats or sexual abusers, however. Like rabbi tropper, for example.

jewish philosopher said...

"And religious people are no different in this regard."

I find orthodox Jews to be a lot different, as I explain.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

"Martin Luther had good personal reasons to write as he did."

He's echoing a much earlier argument.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world [i.e. Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
King James Version
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+4&version=KJV

"Most people are ethical and moral by default."

Then it's odd that whenever law enforcement disappears massive violence follows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia#Social_organization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Security.2C_looting_and_war_damage

"there aren't so many Jews in the world that they could afford schisms"

Absolutely, and therefore all Jews should agree with me.

jewish philosopher said...

"That claim has no scientific basis whatsoever."

Actually children don't exhibit any conscience until age 7, probably about when they have begun absorbing their parent's indoctrination to "be nice".

http://www.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7241

"there are religious sociopaths"

I would like to root out the impostors.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/03/unmasking-imposters.html

Anonymous said...

The point JP, is that you have grown up in modern America. You have had exposure to Western society, which deplores murder and violence.

Yet, you have not absorbed any of this. You admit that were it not for your belief in God, you would have no problem with murder or canibalism.

So what is it with you? A healthy person, who has grown up in modern America, would have some sense of murder and canibalism being wrong, outside of any belief in God.

Doesn't it scare you that you have no such feelings?

Anonymous said...

"Judaism mandates us to hate, insult and disgrace any Jew who denies the divine origin of any part of the Pentateuch or the legal portions of the Talmud."

Does Judaism mandate us to hate anyone else? I know Torah says "love your friend" but it doesn't say "hate your enemy". So, can one deduce from this "Love your friend and enemy; hate god's enemies"?

I don't see the direct connection between sex addiction and Atheism. I do understand that this is probably a big factor in Jews becoming atheists, but it's hard to understand the immediate jump (non-sequitur).

"Imagine the effect it would have on society if cocaine were to be legalized"

I see you're for drug prohibition...well... The effect it would have will be mostly a positive one. Drugs are dangerous - but the drug war is even more dangerous. People should be able to do with their bodies w/e they want, whether it be good or bad. For starters, there would be much less drug related violence, like before all these silly drug laws. Everyone knows what happened during alcohol prohibition, and when it ended crime went down sharply. It's funny, because I'm figuring you won't use cocaine even if it were to be legal, it's always the OTHER GUYS who will be doing it.

Dave said...

It's very simple, JP

If you have a certain functioning zone in your prefrontal cortex, you have a conscience. If its damaged or non functioning, you don't.

The culture you are part of determines the specifics of the rules, but the ability to have regret, shame, and empathy is built in. Or not if you're a psychopath.

So, cultural and societal rules, combined with personality and conscience, determine 99% of your behavior.

I know that you think that the Torah is the source of all morality, but this as absurd, given the existence of many other cultures in the east, thousands of years before Abraham . And these cultures didn't advocate killing and eating people for dinner.

Dave said...

""there are religious sociopaths"

I would like to root out the impostors."

You are very confused, I'm sorry to say.
A sociopath has a bonafide mental illness (personality disorder)
In contrast, the "imposters" you refer to are skeptics who choose to continue an orthodox lifestyle.
Of course a person could be both, but this is probably rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder#Epidemiology

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160252709000028

One has nothing to do with the other. And the strategy you adopt will "root out" neither of them. Your illusions regarding your pursuasive abilities, however, are quite impressive.

jewish philosopher said...

"You have had exposure to Western society, which deplores murder and violence."

Even assuming that's true (I'm thinking "Holocaust" and "abortion" for starters) however that is only in so far as Western culture is still influenced by it's Western Christian roots, a religious tradition which is still very important to many people or at least was to their grandparents.

"Does Judaism mandate us to hate anyone else?"

Yes. See Psalms 132:21-22 "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate Thee? And do not I strive with those that rise up against Thee? I hate them with utmost hatred; I count them mine enemies."

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt26d9.htm#22

"I don't see the direct connection between sex addiction and Atheism."

I think I explain this here.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html

"I see you're for drug prohibition"

I'm not really saying that. However I'm saying "Imagine how many lives would be destroyed in the scenario I'm describing. Internet porn is doing something similar."

Secular addiction experts are noticing this.

http://www.cybersexualaddiction.com/

"If you have a certain functioning zone in your prefrontal cortex, you have a conscience."

Who says? I would say that humans are meat eating (as well as plant eating) mammals and meat eating mammals are naturally pretty nasty. Have you ever tried to make friends with a bear for example, or even a chimpanzee? Not wise. And wherever law enforcement is absent (for example during war times, in primitive cultures) people tend to get very violent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia#Social_organization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Security.2C_looting_and_war_damage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Before_Civilization

I argue, I think persuasively, that only law enforcement and the fear of God can tame mankind.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/10/god-save-king-why-we-need-both.html

Without a belief in a transcendent moral authority, it would seem likely that mankind would not last more than a century. One half would kill the other half, the survivors would not bother to have children and that would be the end of that.

"A sociopath has a bonafide mental illness (personality disorder)"

"Like rabbi tropper, for example."

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/06/fighting-heretics-faq.html?showComment=1338893772512#c5716466659608548959

And you believe that Rabbi Leib Tropper of Rockland County is clinically mentally ill because he allegedly had consensual sex with an adult woman to whom he was not married?

http://religion.lohudblogs.com/2009/12/22/influential-ultra-orthodox-rabbi-from-monsey-caught-in-sex-scandal/

Where exactly do I find that in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders

It sounded to me like you were using the word "sociopath" loosely in the sense of "a bad guy".

natschuster said...

I was under the impression that the pre-frontal cortex is where we have impulse control. That's not exactly the same thing as a conscience. The Nazis had pretty good impulse control, but they weren't nice people.

ksil said...

i get such han'ah being a secret heretic, daven from the amud, tricking guys like JP, hopefully placing little seeds of doubt and/or skeptisism in others....showing them the light...the enlightenment didnt end JP, hopefully, its just begining and we can rid ourselves of this cultish, absurd, man-made BS.

im yirtzeh hashem

jewish philosopher said...

The Nazis also had a lot of fun doing their thing. For a while.

And this proves my point again: you do need God to be good.

Here we have an atheist and of course he has no conscience whatsoever. He lies and deceives others with no shame, guilt, remorse at all. He's on the contrary proud of if and happy about it.

Anonymous said...

"Yes. See Psalms 132:21-22"

So, It's: "love everybody whether they be your friend or enemy, but hate god's enemies"?

Torah doesn't make a distinction between your friend and enemy, it just says, roughly translated from Hebrew to English "your neighbour".

So I guess if someone broke your window you should still love them afterwards, but if they denie the word of god, you should hate them? am I understanding this correctly?

"I'm not really saying that. However I'm saying: Imagine how many lives would be destroyed in the scenario I'm describing."

I get it, like many things in life, cocaine is dangerous, and I wouldn't advocate using it.

But you're missing my point; the number will be About the same, if not less. Drug related violence will definitely go down. How many people do you think don't do cocaine b/c the government won't let them LOL. You know, like I said, It's funny, because I'm figuring you won't use cocaine even if it were to be legal, it's always the OTHER GUYS who will be doing it.

Anonymous said...

But Honestly, what is wrong with making a SEXY-TIME?! Isn't a Jew supposed to have some FUN?!

jewish philosopher said...

About the drugs, even the Netherlands has quite a few restrictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands

The scenario I mention in this post regarding cocaine would never be imagined by Dutch lawmakers. In fact, the Dutch seem to be tightening drug policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Recent_developments

"am I understanding this correctly?"

Yes.

"Isn't a Jew supposed to have some FUN?! "

Responsibly.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/03/chastity-foundation-of-life.html

Ksil said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Typical

"He lies and deceives others with no shame, guilt, remorse at all. He's on the contrary proud of if and happy about it."

Was that directed at me or NCSY? Or aish hatorah? Or ohr sameach? Or gateways?

Seeing the truth and Showing someone truth is AWESOME

jewish philosopher said...

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law"

My using the Nazis as an indisputable example of evil was not inappropriate in this context. I am pointing out that everyone enjoys what they are doing, however evil they are, until the consequences appear.

"Showing someone truth is AWESOME"

But that's not what you're doing.

"i get such han'ah being a secret heretic, daven from the amud, tricking guys like JP,"

You're lying because you're an atheist and you can and will do anything you feel like doing because without God anything is permitted. So much for all this phony "ethics from empathy" nonsense and "ethics from conscience" nonsense.

You've just proven how right I am. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

"The scenario I mention in this post regarding cocaine would never be imagined by Dutch lawmakers."

OF COURSE NOT - they aren't pro freedom like us. But not only was it imagined, it was the REALITY in THE US and A before WWII, and this is what the founding fathers envisioned - very limited regulations against owning substances.

And I don't think Torah outright forbids owning any sort of substance either...


"Responsibly.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/03/chastity-foundation-of-life.html"

OK, but if we LOVE each other and we both want to make a SEXY-TIME, and we use the protection and all, is that not responsible?!

jewish philosopher said...

"I don't think Torah outright forbids owning any sort of substance either..."

Well, actually even tobacco is pretty much forbidden by Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_in_Jewish_law#Current-day_Haredi_rabbis

I haven't taken a global survey, however I would say that among Orthodox people that I personally know, and we're probably talking about let's say 100 adults, about 3 smoke.

Regarding American law, I think there are a couple of issues people have:

First of all, as a dealer, do you have the right to profit from selling something which you know will make people sick?

Secondly, as a user, if you expect the government to pay your medical bills if you're indigent and get sick, then do you have the right to do something which you know will make you sick?

"we use the protection and all,"

Do you have any idea how many millions of people there are in the world today whose parents "used protection" - except when they didn't? And then what kind of upbringing do those unwanted kids have? Usually not great.

Anonymous said...

Jacob, with all due respect to you, please tell me why you make these conclusions all the time?! when did I ever say anything about SMOKING tobacco?! I was referring to OWNING substances, which I explicitly stated.

"I don't think Torah outright forbids owning any sort of substance either..."

"I haven't taken a global survey, however I would say that among Orthodox people that I personally know, and we're probably talking about let's say 100 adults, about 3 smoke."

about 3 too many - I would say. and we should try to help our fellow Jews quit, if at all possible.

But the whole notion that some monolithic government is going to take care of every single human so they don't get sick is a preposterous notion - it has never worked and never will! Why doesn't the government forcibly put fat Americans on a diet! they're gonna get sick!

"Regarding American law, I think there are a couple of issues people have:"

more than a couple but OK

"First of all, as a dealer, do you have the right to profit from selling something which you know will make people sick?"

LOL, you seem to be implying that if you don't profit from it then it's OK to make others sick.

Secondly, it doesn't always make you sick, but can sometimes help the sick. Morphine is a good example. Medicinal Marijuana is an even better example. It's not like the federal government hasn't overridden state law and arrested sick people because they were using it for medicinal purposes.

Sure you can sell it - as long as both of you consent. Freedom is not the freedom to make good choices - it's the freedom to make bad choices as well. So long as they are personal choices - you have the right to do whatever you want to yourself, and face the consequences.

Again, this is not my law, it's according to the US constitution, and the principle of western freedom. Now, according to Torah, obviously one can also be punished for personal decisions, and this is very important, but that is generally not in this world. However, some gentile law is not the Torah; and it can't tell people what they should do with their own body.


"Secondly, as a user, if you expect the government to pay your medical bills if you're indigent and get sick, then do you have the right to do something which you know will make you sick?"

Again, as I have said before, it doesn't always make you sick, but can sometimes help the sick. Morphine is a good example. Medicinal Marijuana is an even better example. It's not like the federal government hasn't overridden state law and arrested sick people because they were using it for medicinal purposes.

Now, this is clearly an issue with our modern society. I don't believe people should expect the government to pay for their medical bills If they did not pay for insurance - they made their choice and they ought to live up to the consequences. If you did pay for insurance however, I don't think it's a violation to use substances that might make you sick.

This is all assuming, of course, that you DO get sick; it is perfectly possible that one can own and even use some drugs here and there and not be in need of medical help. So going from owning drugs to making one sick is a non-sequitur. How do you know that I intend to smoke it? I'm going to re-sell it! maybe I didn't buy enough to get sick? maybe it's for medical purposes? maybe I'm going to share it amongst many friends so we each get a little bit... HUGE NON-SEQUITUR!


"Do you have any idea how many millions of people there are in the world today whose parents "used protection" - except when they didn't?"

I don't get it. So they did or didn't? there is very good protection nowadays in North America, and a very small chance to get pregnant :)

Dave said...

JP,

You drink kiddush wine "responsibly", don't you? You don't hear about anybody pining to outlaw all alchohol, and telling you not to drink it, because of the "millions" of people who haven't been as responsible.

The defect in your approach, JP, is that you focus too much on what other people are doing and blaming them for all of the world's ills. To you, the world's biggest threats are illicit sex and drug use.

It all sounds very whiny to me. The are many other pressing problems society has to deal with. Like illness, ignorance and poverty.

Why not look a little inwards, if you are capable? I'm sure you can find personally or within the ultra-orthodox community some faults that contribute to societal ills. For example, a generally parasitic lifestyle, under the guise of "studying Torah". Or their attempts to cover up crimes and sexual deviance within their own communities. Or, in Israel, their attempts at religious coercion and thus increasing hatred of religion. In Israel, the Heredi community is like a big black hole, sucking the life out of the economy, with their subsidies, unemployment, poor education, and draft-dodging. (there are, however, some hopeful signs that some of this is about change soon). What about their overall tribalistic attitude (which is characteristic of religious groups in general) which expresses hostility or contempt for people outside their community?

I know of course that this is not the subject of this blog. But I am merely pointing out how whiny you sound, pointing blame everywhere except yourself.

jewish philosopher said...

I think that cocaine, heroin and a few similar substances are illegal basically because people find it unpleasant to find corpses lying around in the street or in their home, which is what would happen. Plus people don't like being robbed by drug addicts who have no other way to support their habit.

In Judaism, unhealthy behaviors are prohibited by religious law, even tobacco.

I have a suggestion about how to legalize drugs.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2011/08/ultimate-pleasure.html

"So they did or didn't?"

They did except when they forgot or were drunk or something else like that. Even the results of planned pregnancies in America often have miserable childhoods; unplanned ones fare even worse.

jewish philosopher said...

"The defect in your approach, JP, is that you focus too much on what other people are doing and blaming them for all of the world's ills."

The purpose of this blog is to promote Orthodox Judaism and to critique other ideologies, in particular atheism: promoting truth and real happiness; fighting lies and harmful addictions.  

About critiquing the orthodox community, there are already thousands of people enthusiastically doing that. It's a small industry.  As long as there have been Jews there has been anti-jewish literature . Rabbis as well give speeches, write articles and even hold mass meetings of 60,000 people when improvement is needed.

ksil said...

"you can and will do anything you feel like doing "

I KNOW, RIGHT? It feels great - thats why i try to help others break free of the chains and bondage. its my own personal passover - FREEDOM! feels good. hopefully your kids will come across your blog one day and see the light. (by reading the comments)

as long as i am not harming anyone else, or trampeling on their rights....of course

jewish philosopher said...

Free but miserable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7302609.stm

Lol.

ksil said...

i happen to not be miserable, quite happy and content actually.

however, i care more about what is true, than what makes me happy.

my kids are happy with the tooth fairy -

jewish philosopher said...

Atheists don't do well coping with stress, pain, disappointments, aging and impending death compared to monotheists. Monotheists pray. Atheists drink and drug. Opium is the religion of atheists.

This is why Alcholics Anonymous and all 12 step programs focus on God, prayer and helping others. (Sound familiar: the world stands on three things - Torah, avodah and doing chessed.)

Instead of teaching 10 year olds about God, our enlightened society waits until they are adults, hit bottom on skid row and then we try to teach them about God. Brilliant.

And I'm glad you're happy believing in the magic evolution fairy.

ksil said...

i follow the truth, wherever it may lead me. you dont

jewish philosopher said...

Ok, Mr Truth (who just above admitted to enjoying lying), if the Jewish tradition is bogus, how do you explain the descending levels of Jewish literature?

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2010/03/jewish-literature-seeing-effects-of.html

ksil said...

i admitted lying? please show me where

Anonymous said...

"I think that cocaine, heroin and a few similar substances are illegal basically because people find it unpleasant to find corpses lying around in the street or in their home, which is what would happen."

Interesting - you're opinion has changed quite dramatically since yesterday. LOL. This is like saying alcohol should be banned because you don't want people to drink in front of your face, in the stree,t and in your home. Who says they can come in your home or drink in times square where there are thousands of people?! No - they are allowed to do it privately. This is a very poor case for criminalization of drugs. And NO, this won't happen because legalizing drugs does not mean you can infringe on someone else's rights - you can smoke privately.


"In Judaism, unhealthy behaviors are prohibited by religious law, even tobacco."

Try again, you have yet to disprove me - "I don't think Torah outright forbids OWNING any sort of substance either..."

Regarding smoking and Judaism, there are Rabbis on both sides, I haven't done a survey either, but I personally know 2 Orthodox Rabbis (I wouldn't call them Haredi though) who have nothing against it. One of them is a frequent smoker, and the other used to smoke. He says he wouldn't suggest a Jew to smoke, but if he does, he wouldn't dare call him a "sinner".

"I have a suggestion about how to legalize drugs."

ME TOO! although it isn't as creative as yours :( I'm sorry :( What was wrong before WWII?! what was wrong with what the founders intended? This is all very Ironic because those who profit from selling drugs (like Mexican Drug Cartels) are the ones who want to keep them illegal. LOL!

http://goo.gl/qBd84

"They did except when they forgot or were drunk or something else like that."

Why, then, should anyone do anything risky?! (which is many things) after all, if you're drunk or forget or something else like that bad things can happen!


I want to ask you a question. Have you shown your blog to anybody in your community? If yes, what do they think about it?

jewish philosopher said...

"i admitted lying? please show me where"

"tricking guys like JP"

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/06/fighting-heretics-faq.html?showComment=1339008097372#c7982180530665948656

And aren't you clearly, publicly lying each time you are called to read the Torah and recite the blessings on it

Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the universe, who has chosen us from among all the nations and given us His Torah. Blessed are You L-rd, who gives the Torah.

So you're just a big fat liar. You lie so much, and to yourself too, that you don't even realize it.

Your following your penis wherever it may lead you. Which is to a not good place.

ksil said...

nah, thats not lying!

thats like singing a chrismas carol about santa claus.

you see me at shul with my yamulka on and talis on - but i didnt know that you could be defined as a big fat liar (lol) becasue of the clothes you wear. i wear a suit to work to - but secretly, i dont believe it has any meaning (liar! - lol)

I would say a parent that forced their kids to be part of a cult knowing that it was based on made-up fairy tales, is closer to a liar than chanting some hebrew words that have no meaning to you.

jewish philosopher said...

A few comments ago, you were bragging about how much you enjoyed tricking Jews by saying insincere prayers in our synagogue.

Now you're claiming it's no deception. Those prayers are just meaningless songs which no one believes in.

This is what happens to atheists. They are so far gone, they can't even recognize what criminals they are. They become so desensitized, so degenerate that they can't even understand what simple honesty is.

You're lying because you're an atheist and you can and will do anything you feel like doing because without God anything is permitted. So much for all this phony "ethics from empathy" nonsense and "ethics from conscience" nonsense.

I love you ksil. It's people like you who really prove me right. If you didn't exist, I would have to invent you.

Ksil said...

Right!

Anything is permitted! Lol. Strawman much?

Tricking is not lying.

Anonymous said...

"So I guess if someone broke your window you should still love them afterwards, but if they denie the word of god, you should hate them? am I understanding this correctly?"

"Yes"

This poses a strong problem then. If they denie the word of god, only then we should hate them, then isn't stealing from someone or destroying someone else's property also denying the word of god since such actions are against the Torah? If so, shouldn't we hate those who steal from us as well?

Also, what do you define as "hating" someone? I know RaMBaM defines what it means to "love your neighbour", but I haven't heard of any Jewish definition of what it means to "hate".

Dave said...

" It's people like you who really prove me right. If you didn't exist, I would have to invent you."

Funny, I was thinking the same about you, JP. A perfect straw man ultra-orthodox-- phony, illogical, anti-social, extreme and self-deceiving. (Not like real ultra-orthodox people I know)

While you think you are fighting the good fight, in reality you are disgracing and discrediting your religion and Torah. Any non UO or non-believer who would read your blog would have nothing but scorn or disgust. You convince nobody.

jewish philosopher said...

"Tricking is not lying."

And you're in denial.

"then isn't stealing from someone or destroying someone else's property also denying the word of god"

No. Believers can still sin. Even I am not a perfect saint.

"phony, illogical, anti-social, extreme and self-deceiving"

And all because I disagree with you and a you can't win the argument. Poor you. You forgot about my being blinded by the devil from seeing the truth.

jewish philosopher said...

"I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do."

Helen Keller

Dave said...

Don't flatter yourself. If your motives were actually pure, and wanted to influence people in a positive way, you would not be using your techniques of contempt, threats of hell, and attacks.
Instead, I suspect that your true motives are simply to spit your venom in a public forum in order to feel better.

jewish philosopher said...

I suppose the federal government, which sentences drug dealers to long prison terms

http://www.fbi.gov/atlanta/press-releases/2012/drug-dealer-convicted

and publishes scary booklets for teenagers

http://drugfactsweek.drugabuse.gov/files/teenbrochure_508.pdf

is also just spitting venom in a public forum in order to feel better.

The big problem I have when it comes to debating with atheists is that it's so easy. I feel like I'm Hulk Hogan wrestling Woody Allen. Total smack down.

"Any non UO or non-believer who would read your blog would have nothing but scorn or disgust."

I don't know you if this has occurred to you, however it goes both ways.

How do you think an Orthodox Jew feels when he reads that 40% of babies in America are born to single mothers

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/13/AR2009051301628.html

that in the US, over a million unborn babies per year are destroyed before they are born, generally because the mother finds having a baby (but apparently not having sex) to be undesirable

http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/

Two and half millions Americans are in jail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Prison_population

750,000 Americans are registered sex offenders

http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/NewsEventServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=4615

about 75,000 Americans die from alcohol each year

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/ns/health-addictions/t/alcohol-linked-us-deaths-year/#.T9IEkrAV1YU

40,000 die from drugs

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/17/local/la-me-drugs-epidemic-20110918

30,000 kill themselves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States

16,000 are killed by someone else

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

while 18,000 die from AIDS

http://www.avert.org/usa-statistics.htm

This is a national sinking into a bottomless pit of Godless debauchery and violence. It's a Sodom and Gomorrah.

Dave said...

Unlike the government, you don't track effectiveness of your methods. Government and other organizations measure the effectiveness of what they are doing, or rely on studies. So they know that what they are doing helps, usually.

You think that you influence people, but your methods don't work.

jewish philosopher said...

I've seen and heard plenty of results.

As the ancient Chinese proverb states "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness."

Dave said...

Well, I think I don't believe you.

jewish philosopher said...

Plenty of Orthodox people have enjoyed and been encouraged by my blog (based on what they tell me) while I have seen the anti-Orthodox Jewish skeptic drop blogs pretty much disappear, I think largely because I drive them nuts.

So think what you want.

And as I said, that's fine if some secular Americans are going to be appalled by the Torah's tolerance of slavery or intolerance of sodomy or that we don't have female rabbis. However there are some pretty appalling things going on in their world too, as I partially list above.

Dave said...

As on aside-- on Shabbat, I attended a shiur about gender separation. On the topic of prohibitions of interacting or even talking to women. The classical sources-- the gemora, rambam, etc are pretty clear on this. The principle:
כבודה בת מלך פנימה

The Rambam states that a man should only allow his wife out of the house once a month. Minimal or no conversation with your wife, certainly other women. You're not allowed to greet women or certainly have a social conversation.

Clearly this is not followed today by Torah Jews (except by perhaps a very few extremists). Why? Because the context and role of women has changed. For better or for worse. Society is now mixed, and women are capable of doing most things that men can do. Even a Kollel husband would not dream of telling his wife she can not go out to work, shop, or socialize.

Whether the orthodox like to acknowledge it our not-- all halacha is relative, exists in a social context, and subject to change. The principle may remain the same, but the application changes. Just like the Conservative movement says.

Sooner or later, there WILL be orthodox women rabbis. In Israel, there are already highly trained women "halachic advisors".

In 100-200 years, there will be many women rabbis (maybe not in Williamsburg), and most people will amuzingly ask what all the fuss was about.

jewish philosopher said...

"all halacha is relative, exists in a social context, and subject to change"

You see the problem is that you are confusing halacha with minhag - law with custom.

Customs do change. A thousand years ago, no Jew spoke Yiddish. Today many orthodox Jews consider speaking Yiddish to be an important part of their lifestyle. Several hundred years ago, many Jews fasted every Monday and Thursday, today I know of no one who does.

Laws don't change, or at least barely have done so since the close of the Talmud.

It's a complex topic. You might want to check into a yeshiva for a couple of years to gain expertise.

jewish philosopher said...

Another point which I think you're missing is that idea of becoming ersatz men has very little appeal to orthodox women. They are happy being real women - wives and mothers. Secular women must become men because they can't find a man who will commit to them and not beat them up.

Dave said...

"You see the problem is that you are confusing halacha with minhag - law with custom."

Nם I am not. That is the dishonesty inherent in the Heredi position. The above sources were clearly halachic statements, at least as halachic as שער באישה ערוה
Unless you want to say that is a minhag, too.

Halacha changes.

Actually I agree with you--- in reality its all minhag!!

"You might want to check into a yeshiva for a couple of years to gain expertise."

I did, in my younger years.

jewish philosopher said...

You need to go back.

JRKmommy said...

1. You mentioned that your rabbi was contacted. Please share with us what he said to you.

2. Since you are so proud of your internet postings, why don't you send them to Yad l'Achim? Specifically, what do the rabbis there think of your crude slang terms?

3. You speak of the dangers of the internet. What precautions have you put in place to ensure that you are posting for pure purposes only, and not because you get off on it?

jewish philosopher said...

"Please share with us what he said to you."

Please share with me all details of your personal life.

"Since you are so proud of your internet postings, why don't you send them to Yad l'Achim? Specifically, what do the rabbis there think of your crude slang terms?"

I think they're too busy to be my personal editors, however feel free to call them yourself.

As you know, no orthodox Jewish website, magazine or newspaper carries a rabbinical approbation.

"What precautions have you put in place to ensure that you are posting for pure purposes only, and not because you get off on it?"

You're a sick person.

The reason why you criticize me is because you don't believe in Judaism, but rather you believe in some sort of ethnic/cultural/racial Jewishness. Jewish atheists can use any filthy language they want to without a word from you, because you're in the same basic group they are.

JRKmommy said...

Jewish atheists aren't claiming to follow the same religious code of conduct as I do.

Anyway, you've once again refused to answer basic questions. I can therefore safely conclude that your former rabbi does NOT approve of what you do, and that you have yet to find a living rabbi who agrees with your methods - especially when it comes to crude comments on other blogs.

Feel free to prove me wrong - although you have utterly failed to do so until now.

jewish philosopher said...

Regarding using crude language to rebuke evil doers, see Ezekiel 16:25

"Thou hast built thy lofty place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty an abomination, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy harlotries."

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1216.htm#25

I suppose were he here today, you would want to know which rabbi Ezekiel used as a proofreader and whether he was "getting off" on these comments.

However the fact is, it's obvious that you actually could care less about rabbis.

http://jrkmommy-personalandpolitical.blogspot.com/2012/06/more-problems-with-agudath-position-on.html

You don't have any respect for Agudath Israel, one of world's most distinguished orthodox rabbinical bodies.

You know very little about Judaism. You probably aren't even orthodox. You don't care about rabbis or what they think. You do care about Jewish atheists on the Internet being permitted to spew their poison and destroy Jewish souls without being disturbed.

I know this may come as a huge shock to some people, however I don't generally take very seriously the opinions of anonymous scum balls floating on the surface of the Internet.