Wednesday, April 18, 2012

The Gays - Where Did They All Come From?

What's somewhat puzzling is that until after the Second World War, homosexuality was unknown in the United States (in Western Europe, it began appearing after the First World War). This type of lifestyle was simply unheard of until quite recently. New York City in 1950 was not such an innocent little town, however a man having sex with another man would have seemed about as normal as a man having sex with a dog would seem now.

Today, however, it seems to be impossible to watch a movie or a television program or to open a magazine or newspaper without some references to sexual perversions - gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender.

I believe that at least part of the explanation is: perverts create more perverts.

Homosexuals have a much higher tendency than heterosexuals to molest children and children who have been molested have a high tendency to become homosexuals. Add to that the recent Sexual Revolution which encouraged people to do whatever feels good plus the huge number of single mothers in society today compared to the 1950's (which means that suddenly many boyfriends and stepfathers have full access to children) and it's fairly obvious what's happening here. To begin with there may have been been a small number of people with perverse sexual tendencies, however they nearly always controlled themselves and lived normal lives. In more recent years, not only have they "come out of the closet" however they have traumatized millions of children who then grew to adulthood and molested others. Now all these people are insisting that any sex act is a "human right" and that they are a "racial minority".

This also helps us understand why in a society such as Orthodox Judaism or, to my knowledge, the Old Order Amish there is very little homosexuality. Single mothers and child molestation are much more rare.

48 comments:

Dave said...

"Has Richard Dawkins?"

We're not debating Dawkins

Either you are NEVER wrong, or you never admit when you are.

Which is is?

jewish philosopher said...

I admit I'm wrong as often as leading atheists do.

The Bald Guy said...

Ummmm, has it ever occurred to you that there were ALWAYS a large number of gays, just that they're more open about it nowadays? You know, post sexual revolution and all that...

Dave said...

We have no way of knowing how much "atheists" admit they're wrong. But you have a blog with supposed comments and dialogue.

What about you?

The reason I harp on this is that your request for "sources" is not genuine in my view. You are not out on a quest for truth on any subject. You have posted probably many hundreds of entries. You're wrong about nothing?

jewish philosopher said...

Maybe Brooklyn was always loaded with Hasidic Jews but only since WWII they started admitting it.

jewish philosopher said...

I write things I know are right. And I provide sources when possible.

Daniel said...

Hey JP, I've been trying to read more Jewish sources lately. Do you know where I can read Rashi or Tosfot in English?

jewish philosopher said...

The Artscroll Talmud includes some of it in the footnotes, but that's about all that's available.

Dave said...

"I write things I know are right. And I provide sources when possible."

We all think that our own opinions are right until proven wrong. That's what an opinion is. We also, by definition, can't know about things that we're ignorant about.

So, if you a priori determine, essentially, that you can't be proven wrong (by virtue of your track record of NEVER being wrong, and "knowing" you're right), you are either not a mortal, a fool, or a liar.

I am not trying to be falsely modest. But, as an example. I voted for Obama. I now acknowledge that this was a mistake, for several reasons (I think he's a good man with good intentions, just not the right man to be president). And, when I voted, I ignored the warnings and advice I got.

jewish philosopher said...

I actually voted for Obama and still think it was a good idea.

Daniel said...

"I actually voted for Obama and still think it was a good idea."

LOL, maybe a little better than voting for McCain.

On another note, do you understand the tosfot on Sukah 34a, starting from the word "ורבנן"?

jewish philosopher said...

Off the top of my head, I don't recall.

jewish philosopher said...

You may want to contact this organization.

http://www.partnersintorah.org/

Dave said...

Looking at a few posts on this blog, one could summarize conceptually your "wisdom" as follows:

1. beware of your penis, lest it get you in trouble.

2. People are basically tribal, take care of your own tribe. Follow your tribe's rules. Tribes will have conflicts, all that can be done is to manage them.

3. Life sucks. Appreciate every second that isn't sucky. Be grateful to God/luck/probability.

4. People have opinions and they don't tend to change.

5. All human knowledge is subjective.

All the rest is commentary.

The thing is, TP, I couldn't agree more with these assumptions.

The problem is that I don't need all of the decoration of formal religion to understand these things. I do recognize that the wisdom of religion does offer insights to human psychology and society. But I don't see this as divine, but rather, the collective wisdom and experience of peoples who treasure their heritage and maintain it.

jewish philosopher said...

"5. All human knowledge is subjective."

I don't know where that comes from.

"I don't need all of the decoration of formal religion to understand these things."

So how do you explain how we got here

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/02/not-by-chance.html

or how Judaism originated

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

Dave said...

"So how do you explain how we got here"

Not really important from a philosophical perspective. May be interesting historically, but not important.

"or how Judaism originated"

ditto.

"I don't know where that comes from."

I refer to human acquired knowledge. For you the only absolute truth is divinely inspired. Everything else is interpretation and subject to bias.

jewish philosopher said...

"Not really important from a philosophical perspective."

It's vitally important from a practical perspective, as I explain here.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/01/why-weshould-beorthodox.html

"For you the only absolute truth is divinely inspired."

Truth is whatever is proven by evidence.

Dave said...

"Truth is whatever is proven by evidence."

You have already established that nobody, (except you of course because you're never wrong), has access to absolute truth (because everybody evaluates evidence differently).

"It's vitally important from a practical perspective, as I explain here."

You have also already shown, the existence of hell and soul, what is its nature, and who goes there is a matter of conjecture, being beyond human understanding, so therefore is of no practical consequence. You haven't demonstrated understanding for your god's rules for running the world before death, let alone after death.

If you can successfully predict things that god will do (as opposed to explaining something that happened, which anybody could do), then I'll believe you know the rules of god's behavior. Then maybe I'll believe you know something about afterlife, too.

Otherwise your just another false prophet.

jewish philosopher said...

"You have already established that nobody, (except you of course because you're never wrong), has access to absolute truth (because everybody evaluates evidence differently)."

Where? Other Jews also know the truth.

"You have also already shown, the existence of hell and soul, what is its nature, and who goes there is a matter of conjecture, being beyond human understanding, so therefore is of no practical consequence."

Hell is painful. That's all you need to know.

"You haven't demonstrated understanding for your god's rules for running the world before death, let alone after death. "

I don't know all of God's motives. So?

"If you can successfully predict things that god will do (as opposed to explaining something that happened, which anybody could do), then I'll believe you know the rules of god's behavior. Then maybe I'll believe you know something about afterlife, too."

What do "the rules of god's behavior" have to do with anything?

This is just nonsensical drivel.

ksil said...

"This is just nonsensical drivel."

rename your blog (again) to this!!

AHAHAHAHAA

jewish philosopher said...

Here's what I believe.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/01/why-weshould-beorthodox.html

Refute it.

ksil said...

the comments on that thread do a GREAT job refuting that nonsense

jewish philosopher said...

The few feeble arguments are all refuted here, unless I missed something.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2009/06/post-about-comments.html

Dave said...

"This is just nonsensical drivel".

I'll restate it differently.

The very act of you adopting a specific set of values, narratives, and metaphysics (Torah, hell, Sinai, etc), and not some alternative, is a human subjective process. You could have picked something else entirely, (as many other smart people do) and we might be discussing Jesus instead. It is therefore subject to the same types of bias and logical errors as anything else.

Even if the Torah is "objective", your decision to adopt it as truth is not. There are no universally accepted objective criteria whereby one can evaluate the truth of religions and pick one over the other.

Hence, any of your assertions as to things unknowable or unprovable, such as the afterlife, hell or the soul, are just the product of your subjective evaluation of historical texts and traditions. (or a subjective decision to adopt a certain interpretation of them).

Basically, its a judgement call.

And my judgement, admittedly, is quite different than yours.

We therefore return to the 5 points of wisdom I previously mentioned.

No religion required.

jewish philosopher said...

So if my doctor tells me "If you continue smoking you'll die." would it be resonable for me to answer him:

"The very act of you adopting a specific set of values, narratives, and metaphysics (tobacco, cancer, scienc, etc), and not some alternative, is a human subjective process. You could have picked something else entirely, (as many other smart people do) and we might be discussing Jesus instead. It is therefore subject to the same types of bias and logical errors as anything else."

DAve said...

In medicine, there is an agreed upon standard for evidence and decision making.

As I pointed out, no such standard exists for religious claims.

Even having said that, many rational people make the decision to continue smoking. Some die because of it, some don't.

jewish philosopher said...

"In medicine, there is an agreed upon standard for evidence and decision making"

Not really. If you visit several doctors you may get several different opinions and that's not even including alternative medicine.

I think in all decisions, rational people look at the evidence and then use common sense.

DAVE said...

"Not really. If you visit several doctors you may get several different opinions and that's not even including alternative medicine."

In western medicine, there is an accepted standard, by which professional organizations (and courts) hold doctors up to. Within that standard there is some leeway, but still no medical doctor can legitimately tell you to treat pneumonia with chicken soup instead of antibiotics.

"I think in all decisions, rational people look at the evidence and then use common sense."

Except with religion of course.

Otherwise most of the world's population would be the same religion. But since there is no standard for evidence, people follow their gut/culture/personality/upbringing

jewish philosopher said...

Until the 1960s, there was as yet no medical concesus that tobacco caused cancer. So until then, I could have been a chain smoker but suffered no consequences according to your logic.

Dave said...

Your confusing method with content. You have to distinguish between a particular bit of medical knowledge and the method itself. The particular facts might change as we learn new things, but the basic methodology doesn't.

No such mechanism or concensus exists to evaluate competing religious claims between religions. In the universities you have comparative religion, but that is for detached academic study and assumes that all religions are myths on equal footing.

I would say the same could be said for political philosophy. One system or another gains traction in a particular culture or location, but there is no one "true" or "correct" political appraoch (or it can't be determined).

jewish philosopher said...

Using the same rules of logic and evidence the true religion easily can be determined, as I have demonstrated.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/01/why-weshould-beorthodox.html

Atheists also agree, simply claiming, falsely, that their religion and their myths are the true ones.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2009/05/atheism-in-nutshell.html

Dave said...

"Using the same rules of logic and evidence the true religion easily can be determined, as I have demonstrated."

Using your fakakte rules, maybe. I'm not aware of univerally accepted principles when it comes to religion, except ones you made up. Hence different religions. Correct me if I'm wrong.

jewish philosopher said...

Using the basic principles of evidence and logic used to establish any historical events, I have proven that God gave the Torah at Mount Sinai.

As I have explained, if you can believe in the Peloponnesian War you can believe in the Exodus and if you can believe in Aristotle you can believe in Moses.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2009/07/is-history-bunk.html

The fact that there are Torah deniers proves nothing. Likewise, there are Holocause deniers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

and Apollo moon landing deniers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories

Dave said...

" I have proven that God gave the Torah at Mount Sinai."

Maybe you have proven it just to yourself. If you can't convince others the "proof" is worthless.

"The fact that there are Torah deniers proves nothing."

It shows that your so-called "basic principles of logic and evidence" are unconvincing, given that 99.99999% of humans aren't convinced. Speaking for myself, I am as unconvinced as you are about Jesus.

Returning to the analogy in medicine: the more treatments there are for a given condition, the less effective any of them are.

Think of the hundreds of treatments out there for back pain. If one treatment for something is clearly more effective then others, it becomes dominant. This doesn't mean that there won't be people who hold on to other beliefs, but naturally the majority will flock to something that is "real" and effective.

Same with religion. The plethora of religions proves they're all bullshit (from a diety perspective).

BTW I don't think the Torah is a lie. But its seriously embellished. (like every ancient book)

jewish philosopher said...

This is just a silly excuse to do nothing and continue happily in your bad habits.

Imagine a doctor telling a man who weighs 300 pounds that he needs to lose weight or he will die.

The fat man responds that there are dozens of allegedly effective and healthy weight loss diets on the market and various doctors endorse different ones (which is true). This, therefore proves that they are all wrong (which is false) so he's just going to eat whatever he likes until there is one universally accepted diet (which will never happen).

This is a phenomena called "denial" common to all addictions.

SmokeyKitty said...

Please convert to Christianity. As a frum Jew I am rather ashamed of your bigotry and attempt to use the religion I love and would die for to legitimize your hateful beliefs.

Go to church, they will give you plenty of additional ways to justify buying humans as chattle and hating gays.

Honestly, I think you're some anti-semitic goy who is trying to make Jews look bad. Pretty much everything you say about Judaism can be found on wikipedia or by a simple google search. Using a few Jewish or Orthodox catchphrases doesn't make a reader (unless they are super stupid) believe that you are the embodiment of what a real Jewish mensch should be.

jewish philosopher said...

Well I have good news for you - if you are for homosexuality and against slavery then you not part of the same religion I am and you aren't part of any Abrahamic faith. So whatever you are, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Probably you're some sort of atheist or maybe Wiccan.

Anonymous said...

i see u converted to being jewish...i am disgusted by your comment about gay men molesting kids SHAME ON U and there where NO GAY PPL BEFORE WW2? pls go back to a rabbi and restudy what judaism teaches u r no jew to me

jewish philosopher said...

Check out the New York Times online archives. See where you find pre-1945 references to homosexuals.

Emma said...

I'm a bisexual woman... which, according to you, makes me a child rapist and a victim of pedophilia at the same time. lol no. I have never been sexually abused, and I find the idea of sex with children disgusting. FSTDT is having a field day with some of your older posts though.

Ray McIntyre said...

More nonsense. There have always been homosexuals and in roughly the same percentage numbers I would argue. As for Gay men and Children, you are mixing paedophilia with homosexuality, they are not and never have been the same.

jewish philosopher said...

"which, according to you, makes me a child rapist and a victim of pedophilia at the same time"

Straw man argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I wrote:

"I believe that at least part of the explanation is: perverts create more perverts."

"There have always been homosexuals and in roughly the same percentage numbers I would argue."

Against all evidence. In strongly monotheistic societies, homosexuality was and is an almost unheard of rarity.

"As for Gay men and Children, you are mixing paedophilia with homosexuality, they are not and never have been the same."

Not according to Oscar Wilde seemingly.

"--"The Love that dare not speak its name" in this century is such a great affection of an elder for a younger man as there was between David and Jonathan, such as Plato made the very basis of his philosophy, and such as you find in the sonnets of Michelangelo and Shakespeare. It is that deep, spiritual affection that is as pure as it is perfect. It dictates and pervades great works of art like those of Shakespeare and Michelangelo, and those two letters of mine, such as they are. It is in this century misunderstood, so much misunderstood that it may be described as the "Love that dare not speak its name," and on account of it I am placed where I am now. It is beautiful, it is fine, it is the noblest form of affection. There is nothing unnatural about it. It is intellectual, and it repeatedly exists between an elder and a younger man, when the elder man has intellect, and the younger man has all the joy, hope and glamour of life before him. That it should be so the world does not understand. The world mocks at it and sometimes puts one in the pillory for it."

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/wilde/Crimwilde.html

SmokeyKitty said...

Yes, I agree I am not part of the same religion as you. I am a Jew down to the very essence of my soul. Jews who have a halachic conversion or are born to a Jewish mother can not have their Judaism rescinded by the likes of you. If you knew anything about Judaism you'd know that.

Whatever religion you subscribe to it is not true Judaism, it is some bastardized form that preaches hate and intolerance. And that my dear is not Judaism. Just because you call yourself a Jew does not make you a Jew. You are first and foremost a hate monger. I am first and foremost a Jew. There is a great difference between the two.

As for your silly assertions I can tell you that gravity existed before anyone mentioned. Therefore, even if the NY Times did not mention homosexuality before a certain date there is no reason to believe that it did not exist. The Greeks mentioned it. Oscar Wilde mentioned it. Many great works of literature alluded to homosexuality. The diary of Anne Lister which her family hid for many years details her own homosexuality during the Regency era. Before making grandiose claims you should educate yourself.

jewish philosopher said...

No orthodox rabbi condones sodomy. It would be like an orthodox rabbi condoning pork - he's not orthodox.

Anthropologists know that homosexuality is similar to alcoholism. There is a genetic component to it, however in some cultures it's unknown and in some it flourishes.

Laura said...

First, I would like to mention that no study has shown that Homosexuals have a higher tendency to molest children. Possibly you are speaking of child molesters tend to abuse children of their own sex, however when referring to their adult relationships, they almost always are in opposite sex relationships. Again, you are confusing pedophilia, with homosexuality. As for being a Jew, a Rabbi does not need to condone other people's behavior, nor does a regular person. We were put on this planet not to judge one another, unless we have been provided that power by Hashem. Which, I highly doubt he would give to you. I, as one raised within the Jewish faith, was always told to "love thy neighbor" this would encompass not being a judgmental fool on the internet, where everyone, Jew and non-Jew alike can see your opinions, and people who don't know might think that you are speaking the truth. Just because you don't believe in homosexuality does not mean that you have the job of telling them they are wrong, or judging their lifestyle. Additionally, name-calling is definitely not something appropriate to someone who it touting their Jewish beliefs as better than everyone else. You should present your beliefs if you think that is the right thing to do, but spouting lies, and incorrect information is harmful to our People. And that is why so many people hate religious Jews. Because when people get sanctimonious and tout garbage about how other people live, they are throwing stones in their own glass house.

jewish philosopher said...

Males who are attracted to males are far more likely to have sex with minors than males who are attracted to females. That's number one. 

Number two, a disproportionate number of homosexuals, male  or female, had sex as minors. 

Therefore it seems to me reasonable to assume that the recent increase in homosexuality is related to the increase in single mothers and the increase in child molestation and also that homosexual males create more homosexual males.

Take for example Oscar Wilde, an icon for homosexual men. He apparently hired a boy 12 or 13 years old.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n08/colm-toibin/love-in-a-dark-time

I'm not judging anyone; God Himself denounced sodomy.

Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

SmokeyKitty said...

please site the study where it says that homosexuals are more likely to be child molesters. Here is a link from a respected university that disproves your statement:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html


Also, many Victorian "gentlemen" did as recreation and that was to hire a prostitute. Oscar Wilde may have done that as well although many false allegations were made against him. The idea that his actions were unique to gay men alone is false and not an honest reason to assert your accusations. Far too many of the prostitutes were children. The Victorians also worked children to death in factories. This is not to say that hiring a 12 year old boy for sex is okay. Its just to show that his behavior, if true, was no different from his straight contemporaries. Certainly no one would say that straight men should be universally condemned because some of them hired young prostitutes a century or so ago.

jewish philosopher said...

Well, I did recently get a couple of interesting comments relating to this. You can take them for what they're worth.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2010/11/stop-hatred-all-of-it.html?showComment=1334664992449#c9184637482787345756

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2010/11/stop-hatred-all-of-it.html?showComment=1334665005506#c8280804207357393066