Sunday, January 01, 2012

The Fanatic Fringe


[the orthodox terrorists]

It's come to my attention that there exists a group of Jews in the Jerusalem area known as Sikrikim. They have recently received a huge amount of attention as violent ultra-orthodox extremists.

I just want to make a few points.

In a world population of about two million orthodox Jews, these people amount to a few hundred.

Everyone else thinks they're crazy.

To the best of my knowledge they have caused no bodily injury to anyone beyond a few bruises. They have engaged in some property vandalism and some screaming.

Therefore it may be a little bit early to condemn orthodox Jews as being the next wave of religious terrorists. Comparing the Sikrikim to al-Qaeda or the Irish Republican Army is laughable. They are more on the level of Occupy Wall Street. These few unbalanced and pretty much harmless clowns merely provide some filler for the news media on slow days. Let's hope that after a few land in jail, the rest settle down. 

73 comments:

Jeff said...

Nobody compares them to the IRA.

However, bullies in any society, especially well organized and determined ones, can terrorize a lot of people, including "mainstream" heredim who won't confront or condemn them and who don't recruit help from police (granted that Israeli police are not enthusiastic about the task)

My point is that anybody can be morally blind, including supposedly religious people.

Emmanuel said...

Hey, JP, do you think all the hate Israel is getting is justified (especially the UN making more resolutions toward Israel than any other country, including China, North Korea, etc...)?

Also, what's up with Rav Kook supporting zionists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Zionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Isaac_Kook


Lastly, do you think it's better for a Jew to live in Israel, because there is so much Jewish History there?

jewish philosopher said...

"Nobody compares them to the IRA."

Even these "horrible extremists" seem to mainly just scream and spit, which sounds more like third grade girls than hard core terrorists. So much for ultra-orthodox violence.

Baal Habos said...

Your primitive analysis does not surprise me.

Read Sliflkin's post. He is spot on. http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/12/spitting-on-girls-is-not-main-problem.html

jewish philosopher said...

"do you think all the hate Israel is getting is justified"

I think Zionists were kind of asking for it. There wasn't really that much support internationally for a Jewish state in 1918, 1948, 1967 or at any other time. And a state with a population of only a few million, unless located on an actual remote island, isn't to viable long term.

I think that Rabbi Kook was a little delusional.

I don't think it matters very much whether you live in Israel or elsewhere. If I could afford to however I would live in Bnei Brak.

jewish philosopher said...

"Read Sliflkin's post."

He's mad because the mainstream orthodox community rightly banned him for teaching evolution. What if I started writing books that Jesus is the messiah. Would other orthodox Jews have a problem with that?

Ironmistress said...

How would you classify Irgun, Lehi or the Stern gang?

jewish philosopher said...

Lechi and Stern are the same thing. Few members were Orthodox and all were inspired by Vladimir Jabotinsky, who was complelely non-observant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky

Emmanuel said...

"I think Zionists were kind of asking for it."

Yeah ok, but how is it justified? there is no way Israel is a bigger human rights violator than China or North Korea...

"I think that Rabbi Kook was a little delusional."

I don't know that for certain, Rabbi Kook was one of the biggest Rabbis in his time, and for anybody today to call him "delusional" nowadays is a bit disrespectful...

"If I could afford to however I would live in Bnei Brak."

That's very interesting, why Bnei Brak in particular? Also, is living in Bnei Brak extraordinarily expensive? I would assume the opposite since the exchange rate is pretty good right now.

Torial said...

"It's come to my attention that there exists a group of Jews in the Jerusalem area known as Sikrikim."

The reason it hasn't come to your attention long ago is because you only read Jewish works from one point of view. The violence goes back at least to December 2008. You need to expand your reading repertoire, JP!

"In a world population of a about two million orthodox Jews, these people amount to a few hundred...
Everyone else thinks they're crazy."

Are you saying that the two million orthodox Jews minus those few hundred don't think the two hundred are crazy?

"To the best of my knowledge they have caused no bodily injury to anyone beyond a few bruises. They have engaged in some property vandalism and some screaming."

You've just shown that your best knowledge is faulty. Please see: http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/04/someone-is-going-to-be-killed.html A girl was thrown to the ground by a group of men and beaten.


"Therefore it may be a little bit early to condemn orthodox Jews as being the next wave of religious terrorists. Comparing the Sikrikim to al-Qaeda or the Irish Republican Army is laughable."

Maybe so, but your failure to condemn this fringe group is also laughable. Actually, sad is more like it.

Joe said...

I don't get it, what "terrorism" is actually being done that you have to say "its only the sikrikim"? is not letting a women sit between men terrorism? or is trowing stones on a mixed bus terrorism?

this is 'kanuos' my friend!, this is how the chareidim have protested against the Zionists for the last 60 years, by damaging tractors who dig out holy graves and trowing stones on passing vehicles on shabbos and so forth.

Those are not sikrikim these are regular chraidem doing the will of Hashem

Jeff said...

In general, one would not consider the ultra-orthodox to be a violent group. But can one make a generalization about any group? Settlers? Leftist? Secularists? Most of them are peaceful, too.

One would say even among the Palestinians, at least in the West Bank, it is a small number of militants, who can make life difficult for everybody.

Moshe P. Mann said...

"I think that Rabbi Kook was a little delusional"

Of course, Jo Teitelbaum was a little delusional when he claimed that Rwanda-style U.N. binational state should replace the state of Israel.

BTW, did I just lose my Olam haba by referring to the Satmar Rav disrespectfully?

jewish philosopher said...

"That's very interesting, why Bnei Brak in particular?"

The yeshivas there are great.

"You've just shown that your best knowledge is faulty."

Anonymous bloggers are worthless sources. It could be some kid in his bedroom in Brooklyn making everything up.

Anonymous said...

The problem with your perspective is you fail to see the systematic problem exposed by the Sikrikim. That these people would feel driven to this extent is not about them, but the environment which created them. Obviously, you look up articles on Wikipedia, and you think that is all you have to do to defeat the concept of naturalism. Yet, this philosophy undermines everything you're saying here and renders your entire worldview insolvent. I challenge you to give a coherent explanation of free will, rather than simply stating that it exists. But don't bother. It's not possible.

Jeff said...

"I think that Rabbi Kook was a little delusional. "

I'm not too surprised that you hold that point of view.

The existence of a thriving "secular" Jewish state is a theological thorn in the eye to heredi Judaism, as it is to Islam.

After all, why would God allow a bunch of pig-eating, sabbath-violating, Mohammed-rejecting apostate Jews to succesfully run their own country?

As far as longevity is concerned, Israel has been around as long as most Middle Eastern countries, whose creation arose from 20th century nationalism. I don't see them as any more or less "viable".

And there at least 147 countries with populations smaller than Israel's, many of which are not islands, including some of its neighbors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

jewish philosopher said...

"That these people would feel driven to this extent is not about them, but the environment which created them."

No, its them. The environment which created them is basically pacifist.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html

"I challenge you to give a coherent explanation of free will, rather than simply stating that it exists."

The freedom of humans to make a choice not determined by prior causes.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20will 

"The existence of a thriving "secular" Jewish state"

It's thriving?? Israel is a tiny nation surrounded by and infested with bitter enemies and dependent on the fickle good will of a distant superpower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–United_States_relations 

It's thriving like Polish Jewry (also by that point largely secular) was thriving in 1938.

Torial said...

"Anonymous bloggers are worthless sources. It could be some kid in his bedroom in Brooklyn making everything up."

Which is why I picked a blogger who is very well known.

Lets see how you change your answer.

And lets see if you're more focused on dismissing this fringe group, or more focused on condemning them.

Mr. Cohen said...

I am an Orthodox Jew and these lunatics [Sikrikim] DO NOT represent me.

Much more importantly, the lunatics DO NOT represent Orthodox Judaism.

Their rock-throwing is NEVER endorsed by any Jewish holy book.

Their rock-throwing is being condemned by numerous by Orthodox Judaism blogs.

The ridiculous costumes they wear have little or no relationship to anything that is authentically Jewish.

Jeff said...

"It's thriving?? Israel is a tiny nation surrounded by and infested with bitter enemies and dependent on the fickle good will of a distant superpower."

1. American foriegn aid now makes up about 1.5% of Israel's budget. Another 1.5% is military aid, most of which goes back into the American economy since it must be used to ny American goods.

2. Israel's economy is in far better shape than that of America, most of Europe, and most middle eastern countries, witht the exception of the gulf emirates. 5% unemployment, 3-4% growth, low inflation, budget deficit of 3%. (check the facts yourself if you don't believe me).

3. Yes, Israel has threats, but it is still thriving-- economically, academically and scientifically. As long as it can defend itself, why wouldn't you consider that "thriving"?

Eli said...

"It's thriving?? Israel is a tiny nation surrounded by and infested with bitter enemies and dependent on the fickle good will of a distant superpower."

Which is exactly why you can say Israel is "thriving", they are tiny, surrounded by enemies, but still managed to accomplish so much in a relatively short time.

http://www.factsandlogic.org/outstanding_accomp.html

What makes it more amazing is that the US and Canada are pretty much Israel's only allies nowadays, and no country was around to help them in most of their wars, yet they still managed pretty well.

Israel does not depend on America, if anything, the opposite is true, America receives from Israel much more than Israel gets from America.

Joseph Sisco, a former Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern and South Asian affairs: "I want to assure you… that if we were not getting full value for our money, you would not get a cent from us." In fact, Israel has long been America 's biggest strategic bargain.

Let's examine some facts. For 2009, U.S. military grants to Israel was $2.55 billion, $2.55B Viewed over the five year period of 2005–2009—total U.S. military aid was approximately $12B. What has the U.S. received from Israel in return?

Total exports from the U.S. to Israel between 2005 and 2009 amounted to $57.6B—almost five times the $12B Israel received in U.S. aid during this period. The annual average of U.S. exports to Israel during this period was $11.7B, more than five times the average American aid package!

Israel must spend about 74 percent of U.S. military aid in the United States, where it provides jobs for an estimated fifty thousand American workers.

Unknown to many observers, U.S. military aid to Israel creates a demand for, and the purchase of, tens of billions of dollars worth of U.S. weaponry by Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. U.S. grants to Israel —far from imposing a burden on the American tax payer—actually enriches the American economy

Gen. George Keegan, a former chief of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, between 1974 and 1990 said Israeli aid to America was worth between $50–80B in intelligence, research, development savings, and Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the Pentagon, and testing Soviet military doctrines up to 1990 when the USSR collapsed.

Senator Daniel Inouye put it this way: "The contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America is greater than that provided by all NATO countries combined."Recall that in 1970, at Washington 's request, Israel prevented a Syrian invasion of Jordan . By protecting Jordan from that client of the Soviet Union, Israel thwarted Moscow 's ambitions in the Middle East . It would be naive to think that Russia has abandoned its historic objectives in this region.

Israel constantly relays to the United States lessons of battle and counter-terrorism, which reduce American losses in Iraq and Afghanistan, prevent attacks on U.S. soil, upgrade American weapons, and contribute to the U.S. economy.

Innovative Israeli technologies boost U.S. industries.The vice-president of the company that produces the F-16 fighter jets told Ettinger that Israel is responsible for six hundred improvements in the plane's systems, modifications estimated to be worth billions of dollars, which spared dozens of research and development years.

Without Israel , the United States would have to deploy tens of thousands of American troops in the eastern Mediterranean Basin , at a cost of billions of dollars a year.In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor, thus providing the United States with the option of engaging in conventional wars with Iraq in 1991 and 2003, thereby preventing a possible nuclear war and its horrendous consequences.

In 2005, Israel provided America with the world's most extensive experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers.

Eli said...

"It's thriving like Polish Jewry (also by that point largely secular) was thriving in 1938."

Jews have thrived in many places and in many different time periods. The fact that Jews were secular at those times is not the reason the holocaust happened, simply because a larger percentage of Jews has been killed off before during the time of Hadrian when most Jews were observant (and I'm not just talking about those who died in war). A more logical explanation as to why the holocaust happened is because there exists something beautiful called "free will".

jewish philosopher said...

I'm not sure that israel is actually a Jewish state in the first place. According to the latest figures, if one includes the occupied territories, then only half the population is Jewish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Definition

The second temple was destroyed due to sin.

"We know that in the Second Temple era they involved themselves with Torah, mitzvos, and acts of lovingkindness – why then was it destroyed? Because there was sinas chinam – unwarranted hatred – among them.” Talmud Yoma 9b

Eli said...

"I'm not sure that israel is actually a Jewish state in the first place. According to the latest figures, if one includes the occupied territories, then only half the population is Jewish."

Most of Israel is Jewish. Where are you getting these numbers? that source doesn't seem to back up your claim...

"The second temple was destroyed due to sin."

Definitely - it was destroyed because of sinat chinam. If you were addressing my post, then perhaps you should re-read it, because I wasn't talking about the destruction of the second temple itself, also many prominent Rabbis were executed violently in the times of the Hadrianic persecutions, they were secular too right?

Also, I'm not arguing with you about this, but where did you get the fact that Polish Jewry were largely secular by 1938?

jewish philosopher said...

"that source doesn't seem to back up your claim..."

Do the math.

"many prominent Rabbis were executed violently in the times of the Hadrianic persecutions, they were secular too right?"

Sometimes there are other reasons.

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/379356/jewish/Reincarnation-and-Retribution.htm

"where did you get the fact that Polish Jewry were largely secular by 1938?"

In December 1938 and January 1939, at the last Polish municipal elections before the start of the Second World War, the Bund received the largest segment of the Jewish vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labour_Bund_in_Poland#Electoral_participation

Ksil said...

No true scottsman?m typical

And slifkin simply showed how modern science actually foots with many viewpoints of rishonim and achronim....why would anyone want to ban that?

jewish philosopher said...

No, the Sikrikim or whatever they're called aren't true scotsmen. And slifkin believes that people are descended from monkeys which besides being false is also heresy.

Alex said...

Lets just recall JP's objectives here.
Objective #1: Try to make sure everyone knows that the extremists do not represent Orthodox Jewry.
Objective #2: Downplay the vileness of the extremists.
Objective #not-on-list: To condemn the extremists' activities

Ksil said...

"No, the Sikrikim or whatever they're called aren't true scotsmen."

Exactly!! Thank you for confirming thatt. You know what it means, right? Maybe not.....

Slifkin believes that science can be reconciled with the torah....which i agree with you, is difficult to see....but he shows it.

I agree with you....the fairy tale must not be true, if it contradicts science.

Jeff said...

" which besides being false is also heresy."

The very term "heresy" reveals primitive and disordered thinking.

This is because it assumes:

1. That the accuser knows, with 100% certainty, that the belief in question is contrary to a required belief. In the case of evolution, it is obviously debatable, yet you claim to have exclusive ability to interpret the sources and determine that it is "heresy". This reveals a child-like, black and white pattern of thinking.

2. The very concept of heresy implies that certain knowledge is off limits and by simply labeling it "heresy" you can actually extinguish the thoughts in human minds. A cursory perusal of history shows the latter to be false, of course. Imagine a group of people labeling quantum mechanics as heresy-- not only would it have no effect on people's beliefs, but the proponents would be considered crackpots.

JP, really, how do you do it? How does an obviously intelligent person such as you compartmentalize so much and suspend logical thinking?

Jeff said...

BTW I have no qualms about your Heredi lifestyle. However, the "sikrikim" and many of their quiet supporters would probably not be doing what they were doing if they actually got a job and stopped being loafers and parasites.

Every summer, there are riots in Jerusalem, (about some parking lot open on Shabbat or a road being paved over 3000 year old bones) usually by hot, bored, and angry hasidic youth. Like the skinheads and other marginal groups, the explanations for their actions are probably more sociological than religious.

jewish philosopher said...

"Objective #not-on-list: To condemn the extremists' activities"

I think I called them "fanatic" and "crazy".

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/01/fanatic-fringe.html

"the fairy tale must not be true"

The fairy tale is that worms spontaneously developed into people.

http://www.trueorigin.org/chance.asp

"The very term "heresy" reveals primitive and disordered thinking."

Heresy is an opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, especially of a church or religious system.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heresy

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein characterized evolution as heresy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_evolution#Moshe_Feinstein 

"However, the "sikrikim" and many of their quiet supporters would probably not be doing what they were doing if they actually got a job and stopped being loafers and parasites."

Like Occupy Wall Street.

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-11-21/politics/30424453_1_bath-newt-gingrich-moral-depravity

Eli said...

"Do the math."

What the hell are you talking about?! that source clearly states that Jews are the majority within Israel's current borders (which, needless to say, does not include Gaza, since Israel withdrew in 2005, but includes some of the west bank since some Jewish citizens still live there). Basically, anybody who is considered a "citizen" or "inhabitant" not people living in areas taken by Israel only for self defence.

"Sometimes there are other reasons."

Exactly, sometimes there are other reasons, and I wasn't only talking about those 10 Rabbis. Lets just leave it at that, there can be many reasons, you say it was because Jews were secular (but I don't buy it, there is just no evidence that this sort of thing happens because of that, not to mention there are even disagreements in the matter between orthodox jews) I say it is for other reasons. Who is right? the truth is we'll never know because a human is not capable of comprehending god's grand scheme.

jewish philosopher said...

"does not include Gaza, since Israel withdrew"

The UN, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, and does not allow the movement of goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea (only by land).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Legal_status

"you say it was because Jews were secular"

I see the holocaust as being a miracle.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/holocaust-clear-evidence-of-gods-hand.html

ksil said...

"Rabbi Moshe Feinstein characterized evolution as heresy"

he can chracterize round earth and gravity as heresey too...he can do whatever he wants. he also argues on some rishonim and achronim who were much greater than him that reconciled evolution with torah.

just found this book....reminds me of your hysaterical watchmaker arguments posts....too numerous to count

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195369742/ref=pe_191550_22315490_pe_epc_dt1


http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/11/miracle-of-vision.html

jewish philosopher said...

"he can chracterize round earth and gravity as heresey too"

That's a lie. But just like atheists have a license to kill

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/10/atheists-have-license-to-kill.html

they can lie too.

"also argues on some rishonim and achronim who were much greater than him that reconciled evolution with torah."

Who? Slifkin?

"just found this book"

"Book Description
ISBN-10: 0195369742 | ISBN-13: 978-0195369748 | Publication Date: November 21, 2011 | Edition: 1
With predation and carnivory as catalysts, the first known eye appeared in a trilobite during the Cambrian explosion approximately 543 million years ago. This period was a crucible of evolution and teemed with anatomic creativity although the journey to formed vision actually began billions of years before that."

Interesting: the eye "appeared" during a period "teeming with creativity". Like as if Someone intelligent designed it.

ksil said...

slifkin sources rishonim. read his book dork.

why is it a lie? some rabbi, with no background in science, says that a particular theory in science is heresy....that theory has been proven.

i wonder what rav moshe would do with all the fossill evidence of humans evolving over billions of years. i have an idea. just say "its heresy" and ban books, thats an easy way out!

Anonymous said...

You obviously have little grip on reality.

#1 Shmuel Veisfish a Sikrikim stands convicted of assault and grievous bodily harm.

#2 The Provos/PIRA, INLA and "Real IRA" were the terrorists not the old IRA.

Get your genocidal brain* right and you may just become a good person, someday.

*"I see the holocaust as being a miracle." Jacob Stein

jewish philosopher said...

"You obviously have little grip on reality."

You obviously are a typical obnoxious moron, hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet. Greetings.

"Shmuel Veisfish a Sikrikim stands convicted of assault and grievous bodily harm."

OK, that's a broken nose and a finger three years ago.

http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=246491

"The Provos/PIRA, INLA and "Real IRA" were the terrorists not the old IRA."

Which is what I link to. Do you know what a "link" is.

"Get your genocidal brain* right"

Because of people like you God brought Hitler.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/holocaust-clear-evidence-of-gods-hand.html

Alex said...

"Objective #not-on-list: To condemn the extremists' activities"

JP's response: I think I called them "fanatic" and "crazy".

I guess you did call them fanatic (which is not the same as condemning their activities). You didn't quite call them crazy; you merely wrote: "Everyone else thinks they're crazy."

If you consider that a condemnation, it fell severely short.

jewish philosopher said...

OK, they're crazy fanatics.

Eli said...

"In December 1938 and January 1939, at the last Polish municipal elections before the start of the Second World War, the Bund received the largest segment of the Jewish vote."

I don't see how voting for this party must mean one is secular.

"The UN, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs...."

Just look at a map, will you? that is the generally accepted region of Israel, where most of the citizens are Jewish. I wouldn't really care what the UN thinks about this issue if I were you, they have acted in a very anti-Israel way in the past for no good reason. What you are saying would be similar to claiming that some Afghans and Iraqis are American citizens since America has military control over some areas in those countries.

jewish philosopher said...

"I don't see how voting for this party must mean one is secular."

Among the Jewish public, the Bund pursued its relentless campaign against Zionism and religious Orthodoxy

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0004_0_03730.html

"Just look at a map, will you?"

The population of the territory presently controlled by the Israeli government seems to be about a 50% Jewish.

Eli said...

"The population of the territory presently controlled by the Israeli government seems to be about a 50% Jewish."

Again, this is only military control for reasons of self-defence, and the Israeli government currently has no intentions to make them a part of Israel, very similar to how America has no intention of making parts of Iraq or Afghanistan American. The region of the world presently know as "Israel" is in fact mostly Jewish.

jewish philosopher said...

The residents of Gaza cannot conduct their own foreign policy or create their own army. They are not a sovereign state. Internally they have some autonomy, just like New York State has some autonomy internally. They have been occupied by Israel since 1967 and Israel has set no future date for Gazan independence.

The borders of Israel are still undetermined in many areas, however the area which is in fact controlled by the Israeli government seems to have no more than a 50% Jewish population. Israel is not really a demographically Jewish state, however it is a politically Jewish state in the sense that Jews have special privileges, for example regarding immigration. If gentiles had the same opportunities to emigrate to Israel which Jews do, it would long ago have become 80% gentile.

Eli said...

Gaza's government is led by Hamas, Israel disengaged from Gaza in 2005. Same with the west bank, Israel has military control over it but it is governed by Palestinian National Authority. So, 75% of Israel is Jewish.

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4127527,00.html

jewish philosopher said...

Israel is a multiethnic state, currently about half Jewish half Arab, which discriminates in favor of Jews and confines most Arabs to areas which are essentially bantustans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan

This type of arrangement is contrary to international law and the principles of liberal democracy, however it exists thanks to the support of the United States. The fact is, that the way the state of Israel was established, it was completely not viable if it adhered to international norms, as I explain here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/10/israel-holocaust-20.html

jewish philosopher said...

"slifkin sources rishonim"

I have his books, I read them and I emailed with him too.

Here's a challenge: find any document written by an orthodox Jew before 1859 which implies that we are descended from monkeys and you win $100.

And I have no problem with the fossils as I explain here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-i-understand-genesis.html

Jeff said...

" find any document written by an orthodox Jew before 1859 which implies that we are descended from monkeys "

I will, if you can find any orthodox document written before 1859 that implies that the speed of light is 186,000 miles/sec, no matter what the frame of reference, and that black holes exist.

jewish philosopher said...

The context is that someone wrote that evolution can be based on earlier rabbinical authorities and I'm contending that this isn't true.

Alex said...

"can be based on" or "can be reconciled with" -- big difference.

Alex said...

A thought question, since we're on the topic of crazy fanatics: What if some reader of your blog goes out and kills either a homosexual or an atheist, gets caught, gets asked why he did, and answers that he was spurred on by your writing. Your name will of course be dragged in the mud. How might you respond to the negative press?

jewish philosopher said...

What if some reader of Richard Dawkins' blog goes out and kills either a Catholic or an Orthodox Jews, gets caught, gets asked why he did, and answers that he was spurred on by Dawkins' writing. His name will of course be dragged in the mud. How might he respond to the negative press?

After all, according to Dawkins, by sending my children to Jewish schools and by supporting them financially, I am far worse than a pedophile.

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/118-religion-39-s-real-child-abuse

Nothing I write is any more extreme than all the garbage atheists write. Listen to Hitchens about Jerry Falwell 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIviufQ4APo

or circumcision

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U93ZiR692l4

The only difference is that these morons are wrong and I'm right.

Eli said...

Hey Jacob, I hope I didn't offend a fellow Jew, and if I did I sincerely apologize. But why is it that you haven't responded to my most recent comment about Israel, its just friendly debating.

jewish philosopher said...

No, it's just too far off the topic. See my heading.

The purpose of this blog is to promote Orthodox Judaism and to critique other ideologies, in particular atheism: promoting truth and real happiness; fighting lies and harmful addictions.

Alex said...

JP, you failed to recognize the difference between your Hitchens example and yours. Hitchens never said to persecute evangelicals. You on the other hand HAVE said to persecute atheists and homosexuals. Now, you can answer my question without deflecting it with poor analogies.

jewish philosopher said...

Prominent atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens would like to see yeshivas and circumcision outlawed. (Haven't we sort of "been there done that? Like Hadrian and Stalin?)

The Torah outlaws sodomy.

I don't see how I'm any more offensive than atheists. I'm just throwing their rhetoric back in their faces.

Mr. Cohen said...

http://www.unitedsilentmajority.org/

Alex said...

Now you're equating "liking to see yeshivas and circumcision outlawed" to "persecution." Don't you see the difference?? I shouldn't have to repeat myself, but Dawkins and Hitchens, as repulsive as they are, never said to hunt people down. Need I remind you of your statement, "I think this can help us to appreciate the urgency of hunting down and eliminating these degenerates from the Orthodox community. How would we feel about sitting next to secret Nazis in our synagogues?" And lest you defend yourself by saying, "oh, I didn't mean "hunt with a gun"; I just meant "identify and expel", in that post you chose to portray a picture of a man having shot a bear. Come now, Are you yet ready to answer my question? -- How would you honestly defend yourself?

jewish philosopher said...

I'm sorry, but in this video Hitchens call Falwell a traitor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doKkOSMaTk4

Treason is a death penalty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#United_States

My rhetoric is no more extreme than that of leading atheists. The only differences is that I'm right.

natschuster said...

Alex;

Dawkins did say that religious people are worse than child molesters. That's pretty incindiary. And Sam Harris did say that it is okay to kill religious people as a kind of preemptive self-defence. he also said that moderate religious people are guilty of enabling the atrocities commited by fanatics.

Alex said...

OK Nat, I accept your answer. That doesn't, however, give JP the excuse he'd need if ever a murderer of atheists pointed to JP's writings as a source of inspiration.

jewish philosopher said...

As far as I know, the only religion-based killers right now seem to be Muslims, who will kill anyone not a Muslim or not their type of Muslim, and perhaps a few American Christians who kill abortionists. (Better ask all those people with pro-life bumper stickers http://www.christianshirts.net/bumperStickers.php   
"What if some reader of your bumper sticker goes out and kills an abortionist etc".)

ksil said...

Alex, the simple answer is, this is EXACTLY why orthodox jews are such a small % of overall jewry (and the global population)

its a sik cult, similar to child molestation....yes. and we should try to stop it.

jewish philosopher said...

Actually atheism is. Atheists even have a license to kill.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/10/atheists-have-license-to-kill.html

ksil said...

so do orthodox jews

they cant wait for the day when we know who an amalekite is

jewish philosopher said...

We are actually basically pacifists and almost never kill anyone.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

Alex said...

""What if some reader of your bumper sticker goes out and kills an abortionist etc".)"
Do the stickers say "hunt down abortionists"? Your blog says "hunt down atheists". Your consistent failure to catch that is nothing short of astounding.

jewish philosopher said...

How about these?

http://www.christianshirts.net/images/bumper/abortB250.gif

http://www.christianshirts.net/images/bumper/whackB250.gif

Basically, they are saying that doctors who perform abortions are Nazi mass killers. Now if you had lived in Poland in 1943, what would have been the ethical thing to do to a Auschwitz camp officer, if you had the opportunity?

I don't think I'm crossing any lines not crossed by atheists and Christians in the United States. This is just basic free speech.

Alex said...

Although those shirts didn't out'n'out say to hunt down abortionists, lets assume they did. I would ask the shirt makers how they would respond if someone claimed on nationwide TV that their shirts inspired him to kill an aborion doctor. And you know what they'd say? "Well, Jewish Philosopher is no worse than we are!" It's a crappy, deflective sort of answer.

jewish philosopher said...

I'll put it like this: I think that some Internet atheists and infidels are a little distraught that I'm turning back at them the hatred and vitriol which they thought they had a monopoly on until now.

11 said...

The Jewish book praises pinchas for killing without a trial, zimri, for having sex with a shiksa. Torah endorses violance. Face it. As the eideh has shown

jewish philosopher said...

All that stuff's ancient history, as I explain

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html