Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Atheists Have a License to Kill


[the "happy face" killer]

I know this because an atheist and a killer says so.

Keith Jesperson is a serial killer who brutally murdered eight random women between 1990 and 1995.

According to his biography I: the Creation of a Serial Killer page 92 he later explained that after he had dumped his third victim on a garbage pile, he realized "It looked like I would never be punished by God or Satan. I decided there was no God or Satan, and when we died our lives just flickered out. The sooner a person understands that there's no punishment after death and allows his own inner impulses to take over, the sooner they become an unstoppable serial killer. That's the point I'd reached. It was scary, but it was exciting too."  

71 comments:

MIghty Garnel Ironheart said...

Your argument has one big flaw.
Religious people can just as easily claim a licence to kill in the name of God.

jewish philosopher said...

We can give ourselves permission to kill, but we don't. Atheists do.

jewish philosopher said...

Eight people are dead because of this man's atheism. However how often can this be said about someone's Judaism?

ksil said...

"how often can this be said about someone's Judaism"

ask the palestinians that question

David_on_the_Lake said...

The difference is...the man killing in the name of God limits his carnage to whoever his God doesn't like...whereas the Atheist has no limits...(ie stalin)

small consolation..when the sword is pointed at you though..

jewish philosopher said...

Orthodox Jews are basically pacifists

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html

with a very low violent crime rate

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

Ultra-orthodox Jews have always opposed Zionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism

Compare that to Communists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

Nazis

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/03/were-nazis-atheists.html

or guys like Jim Jones

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

or Jeff Dahmer

http://www.youtube.com/v/IjW7bezdddE

I think I see a pattern emerging. You need God and the Torah to be good. 

ksil said...

ultra orthodox jews would massacre any and all of the nation of amalek....given the opportunity.

that doctrine is troubling

there is nothing in "atheist doctrine" that allows for murder - -on the contrary


you are blind

jewish philosopher said...

The Amalekites are unknown outside the Hebrew Bible. They were apparently a small desert tribe which has been extinct for thousands of years, rendering the commandment to kill Amalekites obsolete.

Atheism doesn't command anyone to do anything. However, as Mr Jesperson explains, it removes any inhibitions and then human nature takes over. Being meat eating mammals, the nature of human males is pretty violent.

Imagine a terrorist blowing up a dam which caused a flood killing thousands of people. He surely could not defend himself by saying "I didn't kill anyone! It was the millions of gallons of water, which I unleashed, which did the killing."   

natschuster said...

ksil::

There is nothing in atheist doctrine that prevents killing. So when atheists have the opportunity, and any reason at all to kill, they have a marked tendency to go ahead and kill.

And since you don't consider the Bible an authoritative source of history, how do you know that the
Amalekites even existed, or where ver massacred?

Alex said...

So JP, which scares you more: atheists who have a license to kill, or believers (Muslim, most likely) who have a command to kill?

Jeff said...

JP, this really is stupid!
You're bringing proof from a psychopath?
These people have a severe personality disorder that robs them of all empathy and makes them have exaggerated sense of self importance. They can therefore take any idea, including religion or lack thereof, and twist it to suit them.

Natshuster your claims about the source of morality for atheist have nothing to do with this and is beside the point. JPs post is about the rantings of a psychopath, which he tries to generalize to the mentality of healthy people. This is fundamentally flawed.

Alex said...

"Atheists live with questions? Such as? " -- so says your post on another blog. It's a great question, but misplaced. Y'see, that blogger isn't an atheist. He's a skeptical agnostic. Agnostics live with questions. It's your black and white thinking that divide people into Frum and Atheist.

jewish philosopher said...

"So JP, which scares you more: atheists who have a license to kill, or believers (Muslim, most likely) who have a command to kill?"

If you had to choose where would you prefer to live: Saudi Arabia (strictly Muslim) or North Korea (strictly atheist)?

"You're bringing proof from a psychopath?"

I'm simply stating what this man did and why he said he did it. If you are going to insist that he's wrong and there was really some other reason why he did it, I think you need to prove that.

You could also excuse every Islamic terrorist by saying "Those guys were psychopaths! You're proving something from their statements? They prove nothing about Islam."

Jeff said...

I don't think that there's any question that Jesperson was a psychopath.

Psychopaths kill for lots of their own "reasons". Sometimes its an inner voice telling them to do it. Sometimes its a grudge. Sometimes they're sexually frustrated, Sometimes they actually think that they are "helping" their victims. And, sometimes they just enjoy it. That doesn't mean that the reasons they give are actual logical justifications that a sane person would or could use. It is their lack of conscience and sense of entitlement that allows them to behave as they do, not any system of belief.

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath_2.htm

Furthermore, I don't think that anybody could reasonably claim that atheism, or any other belief, could "drive" a person to psychopathy. I know of no theory that says that.

jewish philosopher said...

So the Nazi war criminals were also psychopaths; their murders had nothing to do with their beliefs.

ksil said...

nat, i would urge you to read up on the subject that you are bringing up.

it is good you are interested in this. please, do some research

here is a good starting point. but there are literally thousands of books and papers you can read on this. good luck in your journey

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Ethics-Peter-Singer/dp/0521707684/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1319642053&sr=8-4

Jeff said...

JP:

Not all murderers are psychopaths, and not all psychopaths are murderers.

Stop the straw man, please.

Yossi said...

People don't want to hear uncomfortable truths. We (Jews) knew this long ago.

jewish philosopher said...

Jeff, I don't think an insanity plea was ever considered in the Jesperson case.

Your comment sounds to me a little bit like the "No True Scotsman" argument. "Yes, he was an atheist. But he wasn't a true atheist; he was a psychopath."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

ksil said...

JP, you should know....

"Yes, Levi Aron was a frum Jew. But he wasn't a true Jew; he was a closet non-believer and a psychopath"

LOL

jewish philosopher said...

He said himself he doesn't keep kosher lol.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/08/baby-killer-and-secret-atheist.html

natschuster said...

ksil:

Isn't Peter Singer the guy who said it is okay to kill babies?.

Are you trying to prove my point?

Alex said...

You're equating "non-believer" with not keeping kosher. You should know that one does not necessarily imply the other.

jewish philosopher said...

Sure, maybe Aron Levi is a satanist. Could be.

Alex said...

Oh, yeah, that's right, because that's the ONLY possible third option. sheesh.

jewish philosopher said...

To me it's very clear, barring additional information, that Levi is a weak Jew who got caught up in this "Jewish skeptic" business which led him to atheism and gave him a license to kill, as this post explains.

We must hunt down and expel these individuals from our community. It's a matter of life and death.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/11/hunting-secret-atheists-beginners-guide.html

Alex said...

So lets say you uncover an atheist in your own community. You then raise a din to bring attention to him. What makes you think that people will listen to you? Judging from your success on your blog...

jewish philosopher said...

It would be the responsibility of people involved with that person to consult with a rabbi regarding what they have discovered and how to respond appropriately.

Basically, I would expect the rabbi of his synagogue to ban him from entering the synagogue and notify him that if does, he will be arrested for criminal trespassing. If he is a yeshiva student, the administration should do likewise. His parents and siblings should disown him and sever all contact. His wife should file for divorce. I would also like to see a website created identifying these people. I think this would be a reasonable way to deal with impostors and hypocrites.

David Evans said...

As an atheist Jesperson doesn't believe he will be punished in an afterlife. However he is, for sure, being punished in this life. A prudent atheist would take this into account.

Notice that a Christian can hope to accept Christ on his deathbed and go to heaven, whatever his crimes. An atheist can't.

This could be why there are so few atheists in US jails.

Also, instead of comparing Saudi Arabia with North Korea, why not compare it with secular Norway. (the atheists I know do not argue for an atheist government but for a secular - religion-neutral - one). Where would you prefer to live?

jewish philosopher said...

"However he is, for sure, being punished in this life."

He didn't think he would be, and in fact most homicides in the United States don't end in a conviction. And of those which do, who knows how often the convict is actually guilty. And in a place where the government is very ineffective or even encourages homicide, the chance of prosecution may be almost nil.

"Notice that a Christian can hope to accept Christ on his deathbed and go to heaven, whatever his crimes."

I'm not endorsing Christianity.

"This could be why there are so few atheists in US jails."

I also believe that very few were attending weekly worship services at the time of their crime, however I know of no statistics relating to this.

"why not compare it with secular Norway"

Norway is mildly Christian, not atheist. Norway has an official state church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Norway

Ironmistress said...

Let's say most of the Scandinavians who are irreligious are Agnostics.

Only some 2% of the population are Atheists - i.e. they actively deny any metaphysics beyond the material existence.

Atheism is very much shunned in Scandinavia because it is not lagom - it is taking an absolute stance. It is connected in Scandinavia to either USSR and Communism, or today to right-wing loonies who appear borderline sociopaths. All too many Atheists are also very aggressive on their irreligiosity and want to shove their faithlessness down other people's throats. That is also a reason why most Scandinavian irreligious people identify to Agnosticism rather than Atheism.

Alex said...

"Basically, I would expect the rabbi of his synagogue to ...."

Most right-wing Lithuanian rabbis would tell you to your face, "You might know how to quote the Shulchan Aruch, but you have no clue what the halacha really is."

jewish philosopher said...

First of all, with increasing secularization, Scandinavians are no longer reproducing at replacement level.

http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/total_fertility_rate.html  

If present trends continue, Scandinavians may eventually be replaced by Muslims.

http://www.thelocal.se/15408/20081103/#

So secularization is already leading to extinction.

Regarding violence, Scandinavians are still heavily influenced by their Christian ancestry, culturally as well as morally. Currently, church baptisms, marriages and funerals plus observance of Christmas are taken for granted. Once a few more generations have past, it's impossible to estimate how Scandinavia may change.  

jewish philosopher said...

I think that there is a growing awareness of the orthodox imposter problem.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/52858246/Ami-Magazine-April-6-2011-The-Impostors-Among-Us

I hope that in the future we will see it dealt with more aggressively, hopefully before too many more tragedies happen.

Ironmistress said...

JP, the very same problem - reproduction beneath the replacement level - is the scourge of ALL western countries, regardless of how religious or non-religious they might be. Especially dire this problem is in Japan.

The low fertility is a problem connected to high standards of living and high education, especially that of women.

Then again, should women rather be put between fist and stove and made into domestic slaves and breeding machines? Your choice, but either way the result is nasty.

Ironmistress said...

On what comes to Scandinavia, religion is us pretty much a private issue.

I'm a bit surprised that you as a Jew praise the effects of Christianity in Scandinavia, as Christianity for you as a Jew ought to be a lie - i.e. a false doctrine. I would find it more plausible that you would rather see us Scandinavians better as Pagans sacrificing goats to Odin and getting blind drunk from ale to celebrate Thor rather than as Christians reading Bible and celebrating Jesus as Messiah. Isn't outright Paganism a better idea than heresy?

Which is a better (or less worse) idea, to be an outright Pagan promoting false heathen deities or an Atheist, denying any deities?

I personally have absolutely no evidence of existence of any deities, and those described in any holy books appear to be just the kind of people you would not like to have as your neighbour, even the less as your parents. But then again, the giant squid was thought to be a tall tale until one was found stranded at Newfoundland 1881. I am just as agnostic as the majority of Scandinavians - until I'll find convincing proof in either way.

jewish philosopher said...

"JP, the very same problem - reproduction beneath the replacement level - is the scourge of ALL western countries, regardless of how religious or non-religious they might be. Especially dire this problem is in Japan."

Japan is not a western country. It's east Asian.

Basically, less God, fewer babies. There has never been a primarily atheistic society which has been both free of mass killings and also reproduces at a replacement level. Atheism is a religion of extinction and death.

"I'm a bit surprised that you as a Jew praise the effects of Christianity in Scandinavia"

I'm saying that the peacefulness of Scandinavia is not a contradiction to the murderous tendencies of atheists. Scandinavians are largely not hard core atheists, but rather are mildly Christians.

Ironmistress said...

JP, Japan is a rich post-industrialized high standards of living society, and in this respect well compareable to all Western countries. Is Australia a Western country?

The problem is not Atheism, but high standards of living. The richest have always the least number of children, and there is a reason: inheritance. Parents who do have property and real estate, do not want their inheritance and legacy to be splintered into tiny fractions but rather keep them concentrated to few offspring.

Likewise, when all children are expected to grow into adults, there is no point on breeding. While five to ten kid families were a norm during our grandparents' era, only two or three of them usually actually survived to adults.

When women are educated, they marry later and produce less children. This is a well-known phenomenon and not connected to religion or lack of thereof. Feminism is poison to fertility. Without women's lib I would not be making steel like my dad but babies like my grannies, and instead of two I would have a dozen kids.

Hard-core but dirt poor Atheist countries have not had any problems with fertility. USSR recovered quickly from its losses in WWII - so quickly that in the late sixties abortion was marketed as a safe and easy means of post-coital contraception. China had to forcibly enforce its one child policy to keep the population from exploding. Cuba likewise has not experienced population crisis.

You did not answer to my qustion: as a Jew, would you prefer the Scandinavian countries rather to be Pagan or Atheist than Christian, as Christianity for you is a false religion and heresy?

jewish philosopher said...

Basically my point is that atheists often point to Scandinavia as proof that you don't need God to be good.

My rebuttal is that first of Scandinavians are far from entirely Godless. Secondly, they are becoming extinct thanks to increasing Godlessness.

I would recommend Christianity over paganism; it's closer to Judaism.

natschuster said...

I understand that the suicide rate in Scandanavain coutries is very high. If things are so nice there, why are the people killing themselves?

Jeff said...

Because they don't have the same taboo that religious people have about suicide, which includes allowing terminally ill patients to take their own lives and relieve their suffering.

Ironmistress said...

Nat, try yourself living at the Shrieking Sixties.

It is the same reason why Alaskans have the highest suicide rate in US: the Scandinavian countries are almost unfit for living for half a year. The winters are cold, bleak and harsh here, and autumns are dark and weathers hard.

We switched today from DST to normal time. Darkness falls now at four o'clock. Soon the seas will get frozen and snow fall. Needless to speak about the autumnal storms and freezing rain squalls.

That is the inverse why women are highly regarded here. Life is constant struggle for survival, and to make it, the work effort of the whole family is required. Scandinavian women are no blonde belles but only slightly less hairy than the Scandinavian men. As such, the concept of gender equality is easily recognized here - if and when women can and will do the same work as men do, they also deserve the same respect as men.

Not everyone survives in Alaska - or in Scandinavia. Suicide is not considered here as a disaster, but rather as a semi-honourable backdoor for those unfortunates who find life too hard to live and do not wish to burden the fellow people.

Ironmistress said...

I would recommend Christianity over paganism; it's closer to Judaism.

Thank you for this answer, it was honest. I will inspect that later. As much as I am agnostic myself, I really am no fan of slaughtering goats in name of Odin.

jewish philosopher said...

There is evidence that atheism causes depression.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_depression

Ironmistress said...

That is one of the reasons why I am an agnostic. I personally have no evidence of any deities, but I neither do have the hubris of claiming myself being the most intelligent creature in the universe nor the concept of life being basically just a meanless series of mindless chemical reactions in a completely meaningless, ruthless, graceless and hopeless universe.

The strands of naturalism, scientism, materialism and atheism twist together into a rope which is stout enough to hang a complete civilization. The name of that rope is the disappearance of all meaning.

Nietzsche became insane. Hemingway shot himself. More suicides have been committed because of experiencing life completely pointless and meaningless than anything else. Don't misinterprete me: I have looked into the chasm and the chasm has looked into me.

Only some 2% of people are Atheists by nature. Atheism and Autism are tightly linked together. The rest of people are spiritual by nature. That is what Voltaire meant: "If God didn't exist, one had to be invented". A non-Autist person attempting to be an Atheist is a pretty much a sure-fire way for dire troubles.

jewish philosopher said...

I'd say my proofs are rock solid.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

natschuster said...

So if the suicide rate in Scandanvia is the result of climate, maybe the low crime rate is also the result of climate, Maybe it is too cold to go out and commit crimes. So atheism has nothing to do with it. Just a thought.

Ironmistress said...

On suicide and Scandinavia: the news here reported that a Finnish conscript had shot today himself with his service weapon during war games.

That certainly is a sure-fire way of getting out of the army. If the options are either prison or dishonourable discharge, suicide may be the way of the least nuisance.


In Israel, had the conscript failed, he would have been accused from "sabotaging the state property". The bodies, minds and souls of the conscript belong to the state and not to the young men themselves. Conscription is the Scandinavian way of making men pay of their right to exist as human beings.

Ironmistress said...

Here a nut to crack to everyone.

As a Scandinavian, I personally see nothing to moralize about suicide. We all are bound to die one day, so why not by one's own hand? If life is unbearable and intolerable and the only light at the end tunnel is the light of an oncoming train, suicide can be the way of the least evil.

Of course a suicide is a sad and sorrowful incident, but so are all death. I have lost two relatives and four friends on suicides, but so far nobody has survived the life alive anyway, and I cannot think those deaths as anything but just other deaths.

Ironmistress said...

Woops, here.

Rich countries have crime rates directly correlating to their religiosity, i.e. the richer a country and the more religious, the worse the crime statistics are.

Conversely, the crime rates of poor countries are inversely correlating to their religiosity; i.e. the poorer a country and the more religious, the lower the crime statistics are.

Wealth and religiosity are inversely proportionate to crime rates. Where life is blood and snot, religiosity prevents the country to fall into a criminal's paradise. Likewise, the richer a country, the more likely that the criminals are those who fear God most and whom religion means most.

natschuster said...

I understand that the crime rates all over Europe are going up. The recent riots in London were not aberations, but rather just extreme manifestation of the current trend. So maybe, as people move away from religion, they move towards anti-social behavior.

Ironmistress said...

Nat, so are income discrepances. The rich are becoming filthy rich and the poor are becoming dirt poor. I can see very few billionaires participating those riots.

It is not Atheism but misery and sense of hopelessness which make people rioting.

natschuster said...

Could it be that as people move way from religion, they also become greedier? No more Christian Charity, Protestant work ethic, etc. So that could be a factor in the income disparity. Just a thought.

jewish philosopher said...

"We all are bound to die one day, so why not by one's own hand?"

In that case, why not kill someone else? He's going to die anyway.

"Wealth and religiosity are inversely proportionate to crime rates."

The orthodox Jewish crime rate actually is pretty low.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

Ironmistress said...

Nat, not impossible. I must say Scandinavia is no more what it used to be in the seventies.

Richer, yes and wealthier, but no more the same cohesion, care of the lesser members of the society, the community and sense of togetherness what it used to be.

All in all, Scandinavia resembles more and more Nûmenor what it used to be at the last third of the Second Age.

Ironmistress said...

JP, compared to Atheist, Secular and Liberal Jews, the Orthodox Jews are the least wealthy. Of all American Jews, they are also most likely to commit crimes.

Israeli crime rates are higher than those of Jewish in the Western world, and alzo higher than the secular countries in the Westen world. Conversely, the Islamic Israeli crime rates are higher than the Jewish Israeli.

Ironmistress said...

"We all are bound to die one day, so why not by one's own hand?"

In that case, why not kill someone else? He's going to die anyway.


If that someone else is innocent, that would be a murder and committing unnecessary suffering for his family and friends. But if he is guilty for one's suffering - yes, why not?

There is a term in Japanese which escapes my mind, of "revenge-murder-suicide", where someone who has suffered a grave injustice or humiliation kills his humiliator and then himself. The Japanese language has sixteen different names for different kinds of suicides.

jewish philosopher said...

"Of all American Jews, they are also most likely to commit crimes."

What makes you say that? Actually, it's the opposite.

"that would be murder"

As is suicide.

Ironmistress said...

JP, ever heard the term Kosher Nostra?

Why haven't we ever heard of Swiss or Scandinavian Mafia?

Suicide is a homicide where the perpetrator is the same as the victim. Hardly a murder.

jewish philosopher said...

The Jewish mafia wasn't orthodox.

And I haven't heard of any Jewish Nazi parties, as have existed in Scandinavia and Switzerland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasjonal_Samling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(Switzerland)

Killing yourself or killing someone else are both murder.

Ironmistress said...

JP, before 1900 almost all Jews were Orthodox. The shift to Secularism wasn't overnight.

The Stern gang operated in close co-operation with the Nazis - this is one of the lesser known facts of WWII. Politics make strange bedfellows, and the enemy of your enemy is your friend. That is Realpolitik 101.

But at least the Nasjonal Samling gave the world a new word - "quisling" for a treasonous collaborator. So hated was Vidkunn Quisling in the whole Norway that his surname means today a traitor in almost all languages. He was shot after the WWII although Norway had abolished death penalty already in 1908. But would you whine of judicial murder in his case?

By definition suicide is not a murder. The victim of a murder is always someone else than the perpetrator, and a murder is always premeditated and intentional. Most suicides are committed in a surge of insanity, diminished responsibility such as deep depression, schizophrenia or other psychological disorder, and most suicides would be rather self-manslaughters or self-kills rather than self-murders.

There is a certain difference between murder, killing, manslaughter and unintentional causation of death. Suicide, likewise, is very seldom a premeditated murder of oneself.

Ironmistress said...

There are several things to observe:

1) Crime is the business of adolescent men. Most criminals are either teenagers or in their twenties or early thirties. Crime, excluding white collar crime and sexual abuse of minors, is rare beyond thirty.

2) Most people who become Atheist relinguish their religion in their twenties, just past the peak of the criminal activity has passed. Atheists are therefore less likely to commit crimes due to their age profile.

3) Atheism and Autism have a reciprocal relationship: most Autists are Atheists, while almost all Atheists have Autistic tendencies. Likewise, Atheism and high IQ have correlation. Many high functionating Autists have high IQ.

4) Almost all felons have had violent childhood. Corporeal punishment as child is extremely poisonous to the growth of the child. Religious families are far more likely to use corporeal punishments and severe chastizing to their children than irreligious. See Proverbs 13:24

5) Almost all criminals have had parents who have begotten them very young. The age of mother just as well as the presence of father do effect on crime. The younger the mother and the more absent the father correlate the likelihood of a child becoming a criminal.

6) Not everyone who has had a troubled childhood becomes a criminal, but almost all criminals have had troubled childhoods. Another way to escape troubled childhood than turn rebellious is to turn spiritual. It is a two-edged sword.

7) Militant Atheism is a pseudo-religion on itself, and should be inspected as a religion rather than lack of it by its effects. Vox Day inspects this phenomenon very well.

jewish philosopher said...

Orthodox Jews are basically pacifists

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html

with a very low violent crime rate

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

Ultra-orthodox Jews have always opposed Zionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism

Killing any innocent person is murder, including oneself or ones fetus.

ksil said...

our prisons are full of people with brown eyes - therefore you see that brown eyes cause crime.

lol. you are dumb jp

jewish philosopher said...

And do say that brown eyes made them kill people? Lol.

eric s said...

Empathy and the abhorrence of murder evolved for millions of years prior to the emergence of homo sapiens and can be seen in most primate species. Our morals do not come from religion which is why we know it's wrong to kill people who violate the sabbath even though god commands us to. They come from our evolutionary and cultural history. when we do bad things we destroy our society and our lives. That is why they are bad.

jewish philosopher said...

Actually humans are meat eating animals who have always engaged in a fairly high level of violence, especially males. Cannibalism for example was probably universal in primitive societies.

John Leaf said...

An Orthodox Jew who murdered despite religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir

Are we now saying that because one such Jew committed a heinous act, all Orthodox Jews are evil? No, we are not. This was one such case, and on a whole we can see that Atheists do NOT go around killing at random.

On the Hitler and Stalin arguments, you are claiming that the cause of their crimes were the fact that they were atheists, when this is not true, and you know it as well as I do. These men did what they did for power, which is something which men are willing to murder for either in the name of religion, or in the name of lack of religion. Had Stalin been an devout Jew, do you really think that he would have held off doing what he did for power?

Now, when you say these things, you ignore the fact that Atheists do have morals and ethics. Just because I don't believe in God, does that mean that I think I'm allowed to murder? I do not. I was brought up in a good home where I was taught that all human life is precious. I am a sane person, and as such I will not be going crazy any time soon and murdering.

Now, as my proof that you can be an atheist, and still be a good person I believe perfect proof would be many Greek Philosopher. Socretes (Read "The Apology" by Plato) sacrificed himself and let himself die, in the name of teaching people that they should act as good people, putting their neighbor before money. He believed that, "A man who is worth anything, in doing anything ought not to calculate his chances of living or dying. He ought only to consider whether in doing anything, he is doing right or wrong - acting the part of a good man, or of a bad."

Socretes was under trial for being an Atheist. He did not let himself die for any religious reason, he did it because he believed that people had the capacity to do good, no matter the circumstance. He is the perfect example of what man should strive to be like, and you could learn from his teachings. Atheists and Jews alike have morals. The only difference is that Jews are more prone to having their parents pretend to be good people, which leads to the child growing up as a genuinely good person.

Now, if you would like I could write up a formal proof as to why I think your quoting of the Nazi's and Stalin, are fundamentally flawed. But before I go, I'd like to mention one last point.

When I was last in Israel, as a non-Jew, I drove on Saturday and got a rock thrown at my car. Is that a just act? Is Judaism teaching the child (who was orthodox and around the age of 18) good or bad morals?

jewish philosopher said...

On the average, the orthodox Jewish crime rate seems to be pretty low

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

while I have been able to find only one well documented case of a good atheist and he regretted being an atheist.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/01/chandra-good-atheist.html

Which really makes sense. Being an atheist without being a psychopath is like buying a car but never driving.

I think that not until the last surviving human staggers out of a gay bar and drops dead in the gutter from a heroin overdose, atheists will never stop denying the horrific damage which their religion inflicts on mankind and will just keeping smiling and insisting "you don't need God to be good". Sure, just like you don't need to breathe to be healthy. lol.

John Leaf said...

"Eight people are dead because of this man's atheism. However how often can this be said about someone's Judaism?"

We need to look at this in reverse, if an Orthodox Jew were to go out and shoot 10 people in the name of Orthodox Judaism, would you then go and say they are truly dead because of that man's Judaism?

Your premises are false. You're saying all Horses have legs, therefor all animals with legs are horses. You're using proportions to judge something. Jews are a minority, so it's more possible that the people born to this group are more mentally stable. Meanwhile, as the amount of secular Christans, or Atheists increases, the possibility of an oddity is more likely.

Towards your comment on only one Good Atheist leader, Atheism has barely been supported for about 200 years, while religion has been supported for thousands. There have been many, MANY bad AND good religious leaders. Similarly I'm sure as the numbers rise, there'll be a large number of good AND bad atheist leaders.

Now, a single proof which I just recalled, that shows that Othodox Jews are capable of murder, is...

http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/desolation/josephus.html

Ta-dah. Destruction of the second temple. During the seige, a woman was recorded as having EATEN HER CHILD. Many of these jews were extremely religious, and said they were doing what they were, in the name of saving Judaism.

What's to say that all Orthodox people are good? What if it's actually that it's more likely that a good person will keep his religion? (not that I'm claiming that's the case.) Or better yet, what if it's just that the Orthodox community rejects anyone who appears unstable, giving them the right to just fall-back to Atheism, which doesn't have requirements.

It seems much more likely that a psychopath just doesn't care enough to uphold 613 commandments, than it does that every atheist you cross is likely to murder you. Or even that a large amount do. Or that these same people, if forced to be religious, would do anything differently.

"Being an atheist without being a psychopath is like buying a car but never driving."

I think it's much more likely that it's more likely that Orthodox Judaism only attracts people who don't own cars.

You don't need God to be good. I'd give up my life to save someone I don't like, because HUMAN LIFE is valuable, whether or not a God exists.

But that's off the point. How do you explain the extremist Orthodox Jews? Or the fact that Jews were told to murder woman and children of the nations in canaan?

Premise:
1) A humble position in religion takes time and effort. (discluding positions of power)
2) Evil men are selfish. (such as murderers)
3) Selfish people don't like to spend time on things that don't benefit them.

Conclusion:
3) Evil men will avoid positions in religion that do not provide them with power.

Premise:
3) Evil men will avoid positions in religion that do not provide them with power.
4) Mordern Jewish Orthodoxy does not provide people with positions of power.

Conclusion:
5) Evil people will avoid present day Orthodox Judaism.

This supports the fact that IN THE PAST, Orthodox Jews have been capable of evil (seige of Jerusalem).

jewish philosopher said...

"because HUMAN LIFE is valuable, whether or not a God exists."

Why? How is a human more valuable than any other plant, animal or mineral?

Orthodox Jews today are basically pacifists and have a low rate of crime.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html 

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html