Tuesday, July 12, 2011

What I Fight Against


From a life of truth and happiness to a one of falsehood and disappointment.

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

Good luck. You'll need it if you are going to convince people that your selected flavor of orthodox superstition and self-repression amounts to "truth" or "happiness." These people show overwhelmingly that your position is deeply flawed.

jewish philosopher said...

Getting older and fatter makes you a success? Good to know; it means most Americans are big successes.

Anonymous said...

Can't stop growing older.

Just sayin'. You claim the folks who have put away OJ have rejected truth and happiness. But you can claim it a hundred times: talk is cheap. Those folks look quite happy and appear to be living honest, decent lives. I read dozens of similar stories every year. I never read of people who are actually all that happy or moral being OJ. You don't seem particularly happy or comfortable (no offense).

All I'm saying is that you are going to need more than claims and hand-waving to make your case that these folks are worse off than they were as OJs.

jewish philosopher said...

Well, speaking of repression, every year about 20,000 Americans are murdered, 30,000 commit suicide, 20,000 die from alcoholism, 20,000 die from drug abuse, about one American woman in five is a rape victim and one in four has been beaten by her partner. Sounds repressive.

About superstition, what about Darwin's myth that people are descended from a worm which lived a few hundred million years ago? Sounds like magic to me.

Incidentally, Yossi, the main subject of Hella Winston’s book Unchosen: The Hidden Lives of Hasidic Rebels, is 25 years old. He is divorced, has no children, no job, no secular education, he drinks heavily and he lives with his grandmother. I have so far yet to come across someone who has left Orthodoxy in recent years and afterwards achieved the “American Dream” of a good job, a house, a car and a stable family life.

NC said...

Great flick, JP!
Thanks for posting it. Those "after" folks appear pretty happy.
And about 90% of people get fatter as they age, including the UO community.

And we all know plenty of aimless orthodox Jews, too.

My point about your presumed pyschopathy is this. Its NOT psychosis, which would mean hallucinations and delusions. It IS a remarkable lack of empathy and ability to understand empathy and moral distinctions. The fact that you compare, say, a homosexual with a rapist or a pedophile says volumes about how you think and shows that something is missing from your brain. You also demonstrate the narcissism characteristic of psychopaths-- your belief that you are superior and have the power to "battle" this phenomenon, as though you were a leader of some sort.

Nathan, presumably you don't share JP's view that the Jewish babies in the death camps "deserved" to die like Hitler. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anonymous said...

"I have so far yet to come across someone who has left Orthodoxy in recent years and afterwards achieved the “American Dream” of a good job, a house, a car and a stable family life."

Not sure how you would come across such people. Nevertheless, it stands to reason that people would have to expend great personal effort and sacrifice in order to succeed (as the folks in your video seem to have done)--especially when they have been denied the education and skills to participate outside of OJ.

jewish philosopher said...

"Those "after" folks appear pretty happy."

So do the before people. Everyone smiles for a camera.

"we all know plenty of aimless orthodox Jews"

People who leave Orthodoxy in recent decades tend to unanimously be what is called "bums" - people lacking in self control and suffering from addiction disorders. They are almost invariably failures at everything, regardless of their religion.

"The fact that you compare, say, a homosexual with a rapist or a pedophile"

Rape is more your territory as a non-Orthodox Jew.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/world/middleeast/31israel.html

However many psychologists are OK with pedophilia.

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/pedophilia.htm

Once homosexuality is completely and thoroughly worn out and boring, pedophilia will probably be the next fad. There are already mainstream complaints that the American laws are excessive.

http://www.amazon.com/Justice-Perverted-Offense-Psychology-Public/dp/0199732671

"your belief that you are superior and have the power to "battle" this phenomenon, as though you were a leader of some sort"

Like people who battle cancer, battle racism, battle global warming, etc etc. I guess they're all crazy too.

natschuster said...

If just one of the people in the video was shown doing something lkea tzdaka activity, or chesed, or bikor cholim, or tomchei shabbos, I would be impressed. But the whole point of the video was that these people left Orthodoxy to pursue lives of pleasure. So I guess when people leave Orthodoxy they leave Chesed, Tzedaka, etc. etc. etc. for lives of hedonism.

NC:

I don't know if the babies deserved it. I'm not G-d. I am pretty sure that they are all in Gan Eden now. Now I have a question for you. What is your basis for saying it is wrong to say that the babies deserved tobe killed? What is your basis for saying it is wrong to kill babies?

Anonymous at 9:02:

I personally know lots of Yeshivhish MD's who are doing very well for themselves. And CPA's, Computer Programmers, Lawyers, etc. etc. etc.

NC said...

"What is your basis for saying it is wrong to say that the babies deserved tobe killed? What is your basis for saying it is wrong to kill babies?"

Empathy and the law.

JP, you're being evasive. Are you a psychopath? And tell me something. If you don't find killing babies and heretics morally or emotionally offensive, what's your problem with addicts and bums? Have you been victimized? What has an addict or a gay done to you?

jewish philosopher said...

Orthodox Jews actually almost never kill anyone as I've explained here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

Baby killing does seem to be a secular Jewish pass time however.

http://www.rense.com/general17/israelihelicopterskill.htm

nc said...

I'm not talking about what Orthodox Jews do. I know they're a decent bunch. My question pertains to your moral position. Why does the death of babies not seem to move you in any way, but the existence of heretics out there makes you insanely angry?

jewish philosopher said...

Of course I would mourn the death of my own infant child, as required by Talmudic law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_(Judaism)

Likewise I hate heretics as required by Talmudic law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Orthodox_Judaism

Anonymous said...

Thus, if not required by Talmudic law, you would not mourn and you would not hate.

Very nice. If any of the folks in the video read this blog, I'm sure they are re-considering a return to the true faith.

jewish philosopher said...

If you don't believe in a divine law then you are just an animal who might do anything as I have explained here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/05/ethics-from-empathy.html

natschuster said...

NC:

Empathy is an emotion, not a moral. If a person, lacks empathy, then why is it wrong for that person to kill a child? Some people might even enjoy killing children. Why is it wrong for them? Or what about a mother who would rather party all day than take care of her baby? Why can't she kill it? Now, the Nazis passed laws saying that it was okay to kill children. It was perfectly legal in ancient Greece and Rome for a father to kill any unwanted babies. As long as it is a law, it is okay? So when the Torah, i.e. the Law, says its okay to kill Amalekite babies, its okay by you.

ksil said...

"I personally know lots of Yeshivhish MD's who are doing very well for themselves"

how much you want to bet those folks either are a) skeptics or b) full orthoprax non-believers?

JP, answer one, JUST ONE of NC's questions....please.

you look stupid

jewish philosopher said...

Ksil, excuse me, however in any debate I ever have with heretics, it ends in a total smack down of the heretic. I almost feel sorry for these mental light weights.

Abe said...

When I saw those happy faces in that video, I realized that the prayers to my atheist god, Jahooza, had been fulfilled. Three times a day, I prayed for for those poor unfortunate souls whose mind had been captured by Jehova, Elohim, or whatever moniker of moment it might be. My prayers have been answered. They have abandoned their religion. Its clearly evidence that my god is stronger than your god.
It seems that your god hasn't been up to the task of conserving those folks. Perhaps its because your god has recognized that your praise of him has been just to stingy or you have taken his labors for granted. Perhaps that's why he's smitten you so, and endowed you with the opportunity to engage in a profession that would match your natural gifts -- shoveling manure at the racetrack. And this profession matches the nasty personality traits that render your psyche an encyclopedia of hatred, malevolence and abuse.
JP, there is still some hope for you. Although you're delusional, the start of your recuperation might be to recognize that most people dislike you as much as your god. Speak to a good psychiatrist. Tell him that you suffer from a lack of self-awareness and narcissism. He'll tell you what we all already know. There is no god.

Anonymous said...

"I almost feel sorry for these mental light weights."

Ah, the "I'm really smart, nyah-nyah-nyah" defense. Well played, sir. You have the atheists right where you want them now.

jewish philosopher said...

Well smiling doesn't mean very much.

Ted Bundy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

also used to smile a lot.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/teddy.jpg

But when they pulled the switch down on that electric chair, that smile went right off his face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hvL0ZSixHQ 

When these apostates go to hell forever, that smile is going to get wiped off their faces.

jewish philosopher said...

"You have the atheists right where you want them now."

If not for their unlimited evil, I would feel sorry for the stupidity of atheists and their harebrained "arguments".

natschuster said...

Ksil:

They look pretty serious when they daen with intense kavona. And they take their learning very seriously.

Abe:

I know a whole lot of very commited Baalei Teshuva, so if you at the numbers, I think we are winning.

nc said...

Nathan- philosophers have argued for centuries about the basis for morality. one thing for sure- it isn't the bible, as evidenced by the fact that we ignore at least 80% of it.

you seem to assume that Torah morality is "objective", in comparison to reason and emotions. but that is simply false. PEOPLE decided to overide Torah laws, or to interpret them according to our needs. WE decided not to execute sinners by pouring hot lead in their mouths. we decided on monogamy. we decided to stop slavery and child marriage. we decided that charging interest is not only ok, but necessary. if that is not subjective, what is?

nc said...

JP, I forgive you for the insult. Anyway, because of that missing part of your brain, I understand that you don't possess the capacity for understanding arguments involving human empathy. And, no Orthodox rabbi that I know of says or thinks the way you do about Judaism. Given what you have revealed to us about your personality, including abandoning your parents as a teenager, it all makes sense.

Nathan- "so if you at the numbers, I think we are winning."
Well, by that yardstick, the Muslims are winning.

jewish philosopher said...

"And, no Orthodox rabbi that I know of says or thinks the way you do about Judaism"

It's hardly my fault that you know nothing about Judaism.

And regarding empathy, perhaps before he dies you should lecture your coreligionist Christopher Hitchens. He dumped his first wife for another woman while she was pregnant with their second child.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/media/features/868/index5.html

Or if he were alive, perhaps you could chide your fellow atheist and phony "peace activist" John Lennon who was very cruel to his first wife and first child.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Lennon#Divorce

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Lennon#Biography

natschuster said...

NC:

Again, we Orthodox Jews believe in the totality of the Torah Canon, the Oral and Written Law. The Rabbis didn't eliminate the death penalty. Where would the Rabbis get the idea that the death penalty was wrong, from the Romans? They loved to kill people. Where would they get the idea that slavery was wrong. From the Romans? They certainly saw nothing wrong with slavery. Where did they get the idea that child mariage and ploygomay was wrong. From the Persians?

And Heter Iska is not a loan. The borrower is investiong the lender's money. He does not assume the risk if the venture doesn't work out. So there is no ribis. Otherwise, the prohibition against interest still stands.

NC said...

Nathan-

No matter. Really, you know as well as I, they are all loopholes, historically. You tell me where they got it from. Did the heroes of the Tanach know that child marriage and slavery was undesirable? These reforms were thought of by men who had to figure out a way to make the Torah laws livable, given social changes, and without which we'd still be living like they do in Afghanistan or Iran.

Its basic history, Nathan, and no amount of twisting of words can change that. Face it, the Torah was written reflecting the mores of a particular time and place, all of which has changed, and that is why even Orthodox Jews observe, at most, say 50 or 100 of the 613 Torah laws. Entire sections of the Torah have become totally irrelevant.

natschuster said...

What social changes? The Romans and Greeks where just as vicius as the Egyptians and Canaanites. There were no significant differences. They just worshipped different idols. Slavery, infanticide, etc. were common. Homosexuality was quite common. Why didn't the Rabbis find a way to permit that. Its basic history thatthe Torah changed the morals of the civilization, not the other way around.

And every thing the Rabbis say has basis in the text.

NC said...

Need I remind you, Nathan, of a "short" list of Torah laws we now ignore or are irrelevant, with no change in the forseeable future:

1. The entire criminal justice system
2. All laws pertaining to Temple, sacrifice, and priests
3. Almost all laws pertaining to land.
4. Almost all laws pertaining to purity and impurity
5. All laws pertaining to tzaraat.
6. All laws pertaining to war
7. All laws pertaining to slaves, handmaidens, concubines
8. Most monetary laws including interest, inheritance, loans.
9. Almost all laws of jubilee year
10. All laws pertaining to kings.
11. Most laws pertaining to idol worship
12. laws pertaining to prophecy

I would venture to say that this covers at leaat 90% of the Torah laws.

All these changes came about because of MAN-- either historical circumstances or moral choices.

So torah morality is subjective and in that respect is no different than mine based on law, empathy, and reason. A human endeavor.

NC said...

Yet another Heredi sex offender

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4094709,00.html

Oh yea, he must be a closet atheist.

jewish philosopher said...

First of all, you may be right, which is why I advocate rooting out all closet atheists.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/11/hunting-secret-atheists-beginners-guide.html

However in any case this problem seems to be rare in Orthodox community.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

NC said...

"which is why I advocate rooting out all closet atheists."

An impossible task. That's what being in the closet means. How do you think that its in your or anybody else's power to do that?

natschuster said...

NC:

the Torah says that the laws pertaining to Eretz Yisroel, don't apply outside of Eretz Yisroel. And Shmitta is Derabbonon because we don't have the Beis Hamikdosh.
And all the laws of the Temple don't apply because we don't have a Temple. And nobody gets Tzora'as anymore, so the laws don't apply.
And every Kohein I know avoids cemetaries becuase they don't want to become Tomei. We don't have Nevi'im, so we don't have kings. And since we don't have a Beis Hamikdosh, we don't have Eved Ivri.
And most people I know will go to a Beis Din to deal with monetary laws. And my Rov said that we shouldn't practise yoga because it is based on Avoda Zora, so I don't know if we don't most of the laws about avoda zora. The Torah laws says that some laws are only applicable in certain times and places. The laws still exist. We still study the laws because we expect them to become applicable in the near future.

jewish philosopher said...

"An impossible task. That's what being in the closet means. How do you think that its in your or anybody else's power to do that?"

Is it possible to stop entirely any type of crime or destructive behavior? Maybe not, but we still must do what we can.

nc said...

has your method "outer" one closet atheist?

ksil said...

"the laws don't apply..."
"so the laws don't apply."
"We don't have Nevi'im"
"we don't have kings
"we don't have a Beis Hamikdosh"
"we don't have Eved Ivri"
"we don't most of the laws about avoda zora" (yoga?!?!? HAHAHAH)

SO YOU AGREE!!!

"we expect them to become applicable in the near future"

LOL

jewish philosopher said...

"has your method "outer" one closet atheist"

I can only hope and pray that it has or will.

Have things like this outed any drug addicts?

http://www.drugtestyourteen.com/

Probably, if people bother to buy it. If they choose to be in denial and enable the user, then no.

nc said...

"And all the laws of the Temple don't apply because we don't have a Temple."

And who decided that? The rabbis. There were sacrifices before the Temple. Why did they stop?

Nathan, it is all human endeavor, and you might as well be resigned to it.

"And every Kohein I know avoids cemetaries becuase they don't want to become Tomei."

That is just zecher, a minhag. There is tum'ah everywhere and the kohen can't avoid it. We don't give him teruma. The Levi has his own property. We don't give him maaser. And we marry between tribes. Who decided to change these things? Guess who? Who decided to stop child marriage? It wasn't from the Torah, that's for sure.

NC said...

Do you fight against this, too?

http://www.westport-news.com/news/article/Cops-NY-man-in-custody-boy-s-remains-in-fridge-1463248.php

Perhaps he was also a closet atheist. Perhaps everybody is.

Anonymous said...

"which is why I advocate rooting out all closet atheists."

Straight outta Orwell's 1984.

Anonymous said...

The argument in a nutsehll:

JP: I'm fighting against people who are unhappy in strict Judaism and find happiness pursuing other interests.

Commenter: Uh, OK. You think those people are immoral and/or deluded?

JP: You betcha. Worse, other Jews might see them and get the mistaken impression that there is real happiness outside of Judaism.

Commenter: I see. Well, whether or not you happen to think those people are happy (or at least happier than they were before), maybe those people can decide for themselves how they want to live their lives and pursue happiness.

JP: Sure they can. I just don't want them infecting any of the "pure" Jews. Besides, I'm commanded to hate those people.

Commenter: Uh, OK. Your positions on who is moral, how they can be moral, and what makes them moral...well, your positions are both troubling and morally problematic. I can see, though, that trying to argue with you is pointless because you are pretty well entrenched.

JP: Yes I am. It's all laid out on my blog.

Commenter: Great. Thankfully, you seem t be a minority within a minority.

Natschuster: I understand that all atheists love mass murder. Therefore, I predict that atheistic regimes will condone mass murder. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. Why is that?

jewish philosopher said...

"Perhaps he was also a closet atheist."

Based on the media reports, he was surely eccentric, very much on the far fringe of the community 

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/who-is-levi-aron-20110713-lgf#72786063-2

which would fit the profile of closet atheists based upon Hella Winston's book.

http://www.amazon.com/Unchosen-Hidden-Lives-Hasidic-Rebels/dp/0807036269

Interestingly, the article you cite mentions that "This [Boro Park Brooklyn] is a no-crime area", rather unusual for an inner city neighborhood. The reason for that is obviously the fact that nearly all residents are God fearing and Torah believing. However the more people are ruined spiritually by Internet "skeptics" [moral degenerates] such as yourself, yet for whatever reason continue to lurk around impersonating believing Jews, the more that will of course change.

"your positions are both troubling and morally problematic" 

And your morals I assume are based upon Darwin, who taught that man is an animal and therefore should obviously be treated as such, as I explain here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/07/animal-house.html

According to atheism, of course butchering a small child is merely a little prank of no importance, no worse surely than killing a stray kitten.

nc said...

"According to atheism, of course butchering a small child is merely a little prank of no importance, no worse surely than killing a stray kitten."

What's wrong with killing? God does that all the time. You don't have a problem with that? Are you not revolted by killing children?

jewish philosopher said...

The Torah prohibits murder, Exodus 20:12,

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm#12

which is why Boro Park is a no crime area, or was anyway.

Atheism however prohibits nothing and in fact rejects human exceptionalism as superstitious nonsense.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/07/animal-house.html

Alex said...

You titled your post: "What I Fight Against"

I will not comment on the last fellow, the chassid who became a soldier, since I'm sure you don't have a problem with Jews joining the military. It's the fact that he's (probably) not observant any more that which you are fighting against, not that he's a soldier. Right?

Anyway, since many Jews become non-observant not just because of the seductive lifestyle and beliefs "out there" but because of crappy parents and teachers, how much of your efforts is aimed at fighting that problem?

You should be able to give at least four links of yours that show that you're indeed fighting this kind of fight.

natschuster said...

NC:

We can't sacrifice because we are all tomei. We can't become Tahor without the Por Aduma.

And if Kohanim avoiding Tuma is a Zecher, then that means that even if we aren't obligated, to do something, we keep it anyway as a zecher. That means we keep as much as we can.

We don't give a Levy ma'aser because we don;t know who is really a Levi. And we still take off Teruma and Maaser. We keep as much as we can.

natschuster said...

Anonymous at 12:48

I don't recall saying Ateists love mass murder. They just don't seem to have a problem with it. History confirms this. And the answer I ften get from atheists is that mass murder is okay as long as it isn't done in the name or atheism.
More conformation.

jewish philosopher said...

"It's the fact that he's (probably) not observant any more that which you are fighting against, not that he's a soldier."

The whole premise of the video is that atheism is "besser" (better) than Judaism. Considering that Judaism makes more sense than atheism and Jews are on the average nicer and happier people than atheists this is preposterous.

"You should be able to give at least four links of yours that show that you're indeed fighting this kind of fight."

I've got one.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/11/atheism-guide-to-prevention.html

But ultimately people are responsible for their own failures. Plenty of great people have had parents who were not exactly paragons of virtue.

jewish philosopher said...

Incidentally regarding the just arrested orthodox murderer in Brooklyn, I would be very curious to know if he is requesting kosher food in jail. If not, then I think we can assume that his "orthodoxy" was a sham to begin with. Frankly, it won't surprise me if starting today some "skeptic" blogger out there suddenly stops blogging.

nc said...

Nathan, all of your excuses don't change the fact that most of the mitzvot became irrelevant, by choice or circumstance. So morality changed. That is my point which all of your terutzim only confirm.

NC said...

JP, I agree that the man was probably a nutcase. Perhaps even a psychopath who had a bit of trouble controlling his urges. After all, what kind of human being would react to "panic" by slicing somebody up on a cutting board and put him in the fridge?
Obviously, this this type of crime is rare in the orthodox community.

But you can't always make the "no true Scotsman" argument, because orthodox are not immune to psychopathology, temptation, addiction or personality disorders. They aren't all closet atheists.

How 'bout this one:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/05/05/2011-05-05_orthodox_rabbi_gavriel_bidany_found_guilty_of_molesting_female_israeli_army_offi.html

My theory is that the sexual repression and frustration makes them do this.

jewish philosopher said...

I'm not brushing off this Aron Levi guy as "not really orthodox". When and if he is convicted, I will count him as being one of the very few orthodox Jews in American history to be convicted of homicide.

This still doesn't change the fact that proportionately, there should be about ten or twenty orthodox homicide convictions per year.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

You asked if he's a secret skeptic. I would definitely suspect as much. The only way to actually know obviously would be to ask him, which I'm very tempted to do and maybe I will. I think if he doesn't request a kosher diet, that might imply that he was. But you never know; he may be a very devout guy who cuts up kids.

About the rabbi (which congregation exactly employs him as their spiritual leader, or does the beard make him a "rabbi" in the journalist's eyes?) on the plane, as noted in the above post, sex crimes do happen in the orthodox community, however far less frequently than in general American society.

NC said...

"which congregation exactly employs him as their spiritual leader, or does the beard make him a "rabbi" in the journalist's eyes?) "

As you know, many rabbis work as mashgichim, teachers, etc, not necessarily rabbis of congregations, especially in Israel. My son in law has orthodox smicha, but is getting his tour guiding license. (he does have a beard, btw)

natschuster said...

NC:

But they didn't change becaue of the Rabbis subjective morality. hey chnaged because the Torah said they are not applicable.

And, I do believe they number of pedophiles among the Orthodox is less than that of the genral population. This would seem to indicate that Orthodoxy actually prevents Pedophilia.

jewish philosopher said...

The only case that I am aware of in which an orthodox Jewish spiritual leader (although not a pulpit rabbi) has been convicted of a sex crime is Baruch Lanner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Lanner

He served three years in prison for touching the breasts of two 16 year old girls.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/12/nyregion/rabbi-convicted-of-sexual-abuse-is-freed-on-bail-pending-appeal.html

While definitely disgusting and inexcusable, Lanner was not exactly one of history's all time worst sex criminals.

He also by the way is modern orthodox, a group I'm not fond of.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/03/modern-orthodoxy-is-it-ok.html

NC said...

I also think that you have to take into account that the conviction rates are probably an underestimation of the problem, since orthodox (and particularly heredi) victims are hesitant to report and prosecute, and communities are hesitant to do their dirty laundry in public. Rabbis Motti Alon, Leib Tropper and Marc Gafni come to mind as examples. Although we presume innocence until proven guilty, where there is smoke, there's probably fire. The communities which they harm tend to want to make the problem go away quietly, without a big embarrassing media exposure.

jewish philosopher said...

That's the classic antisemitic argument, employed by Jesus and Martin Luther - Jews are secretly evil, they just don't get caught.

Personally, I know of no emperical evidence that a rapist or pedophile will be able to operate more freely in the puritanical orthodox community compared to the free wheeling drug and alcohol soaked general American society.

nc said...

Calling it antisemitic doesn't make it false. Underreporting is a known problem in many communities, not just OJ.

If you have read any literature on the subject, you would know that certain sex crimes, especially sexual abuse within families, has for a long time been swept on the rug in religious communities. Homosexuality is also underreported.

If a Satmar father living in Mea Shearim were to fondle his daughter, how quickly do you think his family would go to police?

ksil said...

"requesting kosher food in jail..."

so if he requests kosher food... what? he's frum? what about the fact that he breaks other commandements, like kidnapping and murder? does that not make him "not-frum"

i hold you are not frum becasue you do not love all of your fellow jews (if they have different beliefs than you or even if they are just suspicious, or skeptical of some of the extreme beliefs of orthodox judaism) and you harass people. these are not frum traits. you are not frum!

there

jewish philosopher said...

"Underreporting is a known problem in many communities, not just OJ."

Any proof that sexual criminals are more likely to be acquitted or unreported in Hassidic New Square, NY than in neighboring secular New City, NY? None that I know of. All criminals try to avoid punishment and all friends and relatives of criminals may choose not to call police on their loved one.

 "If a Satmar father living in Mea Shearim were to fondle his daughter, how quickly do you think his family would go to police?"

If an atheist father living in Tel Aviv were to fondle his daughter, how quickly do you think his family would go to police? It's probably no different.

"so if he requests kosher food... what? he's frum?"

Once things quiet down a little (I imagine with all the legal issues, he's busy right now) I really plan on trying to visit this guy and asking him if he believes in God.

His ex-wife doesn't cover her hair, if that means anything. 

http://www.commercialappeal.com/photos/2011/jul/13/232691/

jewish philosopher said...

His ex-father-in-law says he dropped out of yeshiva.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/07/murder-suspects-ex-wife-in-shock.html

"Although said to be an Orthodox Jew himself, Aron is apparently an avid fan of bland, mainstream culture like online karaoke, Glee, and American Idol, according to his Facebook page. Aron's profile also includes scores of moderately sexy girls from around the world who are listed as his "friends," even though they really aren't"

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/07/leiby_kletzkys.php

This doesn't prove he was a closet atheist, however clearly this guy was no religious zealot.

ksil said...

"this guy was no religious zealot."

he was born and raised in this community - whatever his personal beliefs

"His ex-wife doesn't cover her hair"

so? gotta cover the women up! that woulda made him a beeter frum jew!!

rotfl

natschuster said...

The people who seem to have the hardest time keeping their hands of the children are the public school teachers. Lots of people claim to have been abused. If a teacher is ever accused, the union sends lots of lawyers to keep the accused out of jail, and lots of advocats to help the accused keep his/her job.

There is an interesting phenomenon called false memory syndrome. People go to a therapist, and suddenly "remember" being molested. Lots of the cases actually reported might actually be false.

jewish philosopher said...

Someone asked the question

"http://www.westport-news.com/news/article/Cops-NY-man-in-custody-boy-s-remains-in-fridge-1463248.php

Perhaps he was also a closet atheist. Perhaps everybody is."

Well, that's really off the top of this blog; I don't generally go into local crime stories. However I am curious about that question. So far, I don't know. I do know that he is an apparently modern orthodox young man who secretly was apparently a pedophile and a murderer. Was he also secretly an atheist? I think it's certainly a good possibility; I would give it better than 50%. I may actually ask him.

jewish philosopher said...

More details:

Rabbi Levi Klein, director of Chabad of Tennessee, said he had spoken to members of Memphis' small Jewish community who knew Aron during his stint here.

"Apparently," said Klein, "he had some brain damage, but he was stable enough to be able to hold down a job," adding: "He had no criminal background, and nobody saw this in his past or even while he was here."

Aron's ex-wife confirmed that his being hit by a car when he was 9, flung across the street onto pavement, "led to his shyness."

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/jul/13/former-memphian-arrested-new-york-case-dismembered/

But that wouldn't really explain the homicide, unless in some sort of rage he wanted to harm a 9 year old child just as he had been harmed at that age.

"Ironically, Levi Aron's birthday is Wednesday, the same day he was arrested."

http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-missing-boy-body,0,4150613.story

Coincidence, or did Aron lose patience when he realized that at age 35 he was alone and his life a failure?

Abe said...

Hey, JP.

What's the status of your proposed lawsuit against the nursing school that expelled your for hateful acrimony against homosexuals?
Have you found an attorney that thinks you have a case ?

jewish philosopher said...

Fighting the homosexual mafia is quite an uphill battle especially in New York State. I might try suing individual students who denigrated me, but alas they are probably all penniless and will remain so.

jewish philosopher said...

Based upon Aron's confession

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/180357/20110714/levi-aaron-confession.htm

His head injury

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145716

The victim's autism

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/wpix-missing-boy-body,0,1140803.story

The lack of sexual molestation

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/07/14/police-conducting-dna-testing-on-levi-aron-who-is-suspected-of-murdering-leiby-kletzky/

It really doesn't quite sound to me like a situation of an orthodox Jewish psychopath, closet atheist serial killer, secret pedophile, etc etc. It may just be a very bizarre episode of a mentally handicapped adult, who happened to have been raised an orthodox Jew, meeting, befriending and then killing a mentally handicapped child.

jewish philosopher said...

Levi Aron at his arraignment a few hours ago; no yarmulke.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/07/14/2011-07-14_leiby_kletzkys_killer_levi_aron_worked_as_parttime_butcher_ex_says_cops_doubt_it.html

Was he actually a believer or a phonydox?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/07/i-want-to-create-new-word.html

Avi Bitterman said...

"Getting older and fatter makes you a success?"

Oh come now. This has little to do with what you consider a success.

My father was fit before he became frum and when he became frum and ultra orthodox he then became fat.

Conversely, I was fat when I was ulta orthodox and now I am not.

Do you think of my father as any less of a success and do you think of me as anything greater than a failure? I doubt it.

jewish philosopher said...

Well the video is indicating that the "after" photos are better than the "before", like it's some kind of beauty makeover. I personally don't see much improvement.