Sunday, May 15, 2011

Why Being an Orthodox Jew Will Make You Happier


[dancing for joy]

There are several reasons why being an Orthodox Jew will make you happier than being an atheist would:

First of all, a Jew believes that when he dies, he is not losing anything. In fact, life begins with death. Following a righteous life, when a person dies he enters eternal paradise. The Talmud teaches: This world is like a hallway to the future world. Prepare yourself in the hallway that you may enter into the banquet hall. (Avot 4:21)

Additionally, whenever a Jew suffers in this world, he rejoices, as the Talmud Berakoth 60b states "one must receive the evil with gladness". This is because the Jew realizes that suffering is an atonement for his sins and he is grateful for this.

The Torah also guides a Jew to enjoy this world, but in healthy moderation. We drink alcoholic beverages, but at home, with friends, in moderation. We have sex, but only with our spouses and only with mutual consent and there are certain periods of abstinence. We have a holiday each week – the Sabbath and many other holidays throughout the year, but we work hard too.

Finally, the Jew finds himself living in a basically peaceful and caring community, in comparison to the atheistic world.

I have been able to find only one confirmed case of an Orthodox Jew ever convicted of homicide in the United States; a man in Cleveland who over twenty years ago shot his ex-wife’s father during a dispute. The perpetrator was modern Orthodox and had become Orthodox as an adult. In the United States as a whole, 8,400 Americans were convicted of murder in 2004 from a population of about 300 million. There are about 600,000 Orthodox Jews in the United States. Proportionally, there would be 17 homicide convictions per year in the Orthodox community. I would suggest that a very low rate of homicide is an indicator of a very low level of violence in general since assault often escalates, intentionally or otherwise, to homicide. This applies to child abuse and spousal abuse as well.

In regards to kindness, one well documented example is the network of volunteer ambulance corps in Jewish communities known as Hatzolah - “rescue” in Hebrew. Thousands of men volunteer their time to participate in saving lives. Together, the combined New York State branches have grown to become the largest all-volunteer ambulance system in the United States. The work these people do is incredible. Their response time is lightning fast and the work is done with genuine concern and caring.

In consideration of all this, it is clear that on the average Orthodox Jews will be significantly happier than atheists.

96 comments:

ksil said...

here is an idea: rehash the same tired, refuted arguements OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again on your blog.

that way you can keep it fresh and active

LOL

jewish philosopher said...

Anti-drug and healthy life style advertising is also a little repetitive.

natschuster said...

Ksil:

When exactly were the arguements in this post refuted?

ksil said...

stephen hawking, arguably smarter than you, diagrees with all your shtuyot

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven

David said...

Sure, your heaven sounds nice, but the Christians also offer eternal bliss, and the Muslims offer and endless supply of nookie. Can you outbid them?
Kidding aside, don't you think the "pie in the sky when you die" argument is a bit shallow these days?

Anonymous said...

I'll be happier knowing I have led a life defined as righteous by bronze age priests and medieval rabbis?

I'll be happier because even when I suffer I'll know that I'm supposed to "embrace" it, again according to bronze age priests and medieval rabbis.

I'll be happier by enjoying a life of moderation. Good advice, but my doctor tells me the same thing. So does my Mom. I don't need bronze age priests and medieval rabbis to advise me here.

I'll be happier living in a peaceful and caring community? OK, but that's why I moved to the town I did. I've never lived in a neighborhood where there was a homicide.

I personally raised $2,000 for education research and I regularly donate to several charities, as do many people I know.

Hey...I am happy!

Truthfully, I never found religion or lack of it a source of happiness. What makes me happy is having an occupation I enjoy for a salary that seems fair so that I can also support and enjoy my family.

So much more to life than Torah or Yiddishkeit.

jewish philosopher said...

"stephen hawking, arguably smarter than you, diagrees with all your shtuyot"

Isaac Newton was probably smarter than hawking and believed in the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_religious_views#Biblical_studies

"Sure, your heaven sounds nice, but the Christians also offer eternal bliss, and the Muslims offer and endless supply of nookie."

I'm writing here about Judaism and atheism.

"I'll be happier because even when I suffer I'll know that I'm supposed to "embrace" it, again according to bronze age priests and medieval rabbis."

Sure. Beats being sad, angry and bitter.

"I've never lived in a neighborhood where there was a homicide."

Where?

"What makes me happy is having an occupation I enjoy for a salary that seems fair so that I can also support and enjoy my family."

Tomorrow you lose your job. What then? No happiness. And what happens when you're 80 and  about to lose everything, even your own mind, forever?

NC said...

"Tomorrow you lose your job. What then? No happiness. And what happens when you're 80 and about to lose everything, even your own mind, forever?"

We only think and worry about our death because of our big brains. Animals, OTOH, have survival instincts but don't worry or fret about it like we do.

So we invented a nice way to make ourselves feel better: eternal happiness after death.

Did you even see the movie "The Invention of Lying"?

natschuster said...

Ksil:

Did Stephen Hawking prove there is no heaven? You are commiting the l;ogical fallacy of appeal to authority.

Anonymous at 2:43:

A shul in my neighborhood raised $505,000 to fund research for a cure for a boy suffering from a rare disease. Waht you are saying is nice and all, but we have to look at the numbers if we want to be scientific.

Jeff said...

Why Getting a Lobotomy Will Make You Happier

natschuster said...

Anonymous at 2:43

Lots of studies show that religious people tnd to have less, anti-social and self destrcutive behaviors. And they tend to be more generous and altruistic. But as long as you are happy, why worry about the rest of the world?

Velvel said...

I beg to differ about your statistics of Orthodox murderers. In fact just 2 months ago an Orthodox married man strangled his wife of 40 years in her own bed and he ADMITTED IT.

Several years ago a particularly vile murder happened when an Orthodox married man buthered his pregnant wife in front of his 2 small children. The reason he did it, he fell in love with a prostitute he was patronizing and wanted to run off with her. He was convicted of murder and is in prison.

The number of Orthodox men who are convicted sex offenders is quite alarming.

If you want people to take you seriously don't say a sheker that there was only 1 case of murder. Unfortunately these are not the only cases of Frum people murdering in the USA.

Anonymous said...

"Where?"

Massachusetts

"Tomorrow you lose your job. What then? No happiness. And what happens when you're 80 and about to lose everything, even your own mind, forever."

My job is not my occupation, and my happiness does not depend on either a particular job or being employed. Can't say how happy I'll be when I'm 80, but I fail to see that I'll feel any sense of pride at having avoided bacon and taken Saturdays off. No, my pride will be--I hope--some happy children, smiling grandchildren, memories of a life with the woman I married, and wonder at the people I have met and known.

As I said, there's so much more to life than Torah or Yiddishkeit.

Joseph said...

Cross Currents, an Orthodox blog, posted statistics relating to happiness in various religious groups. Orthodox Jews were slightly happier then "devout" atheists. But only slightly. Happiness didn't appear to relate to faith as much as to degree of commitment to said faith.

Abe said...

Want to know why those two chareidi dancers pictured above are so happy?
They're dancing with each other and not with women. Its nice to see so many chasidishe guys stepping out of the closet.
Just goes to show that you can serve god if you can harness the sexuality that god has blessed you with.
Now if they would only stop being so misogynistic and permit and allow women to similarly fulfill themselves in public. I'm sure it would make god a lot happier.

jewish philosopher said...

"So we invented a nice way to make ourselves feel better: eternal happiness after death. "

This post is not discussing the truth of Judaism, something which I have already discussed elsewhere.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

"Why Getting a Lobotomy Will Make You Happier"

Probably not, but you're welcome to try it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#Indications_and_outcomes:_medical_literature

"In fact just 2 months ago an Orthodox married man strangled his wife of 40 years in her own bed and he ADMITTED IT."

When and if he is convicted of murder, he will be #2.

"Several years ago a particularly vile murder happened when an Orthodox married man buthered his pregnant wife in front of his 2 small children."

Source please?

"The number of Orthodox men who are convicted sex offenders is quite alarming."

Not nearly as high as atheists wish it was. In the National Sex Offender Registry, there are several people who appear to be Orthodox Jews. However, there are over 491,720 registered sex offenders in the United States, meaning that about one in every 620 Americans is a registered sex offender. Proportionally about 970 Orthodox Jews should be registered sex offenders. I don’t believe that there is 1% that number.

"Massachusetts"

In 2009 alone there were 172 murders.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/macrime.htm

"some happy children, smiling grandchildren, memories of a life with the woman I married, and wonder at the people I have met and known"

Which is a far more likely outcome for Orthodox Jews, who have high birth rates, low divorce rates and high rates of participation in a community. The world's leading atheist Richard Dawkins, to the best of my knowledge, has no relationship with his one child, an adult daughter from his second wife (he is currently married to #3). Likewise, the son of  Madalyn O'Hair, founder of the organization American Atheists and its president from 1963 to 1986, wrote a horrific account of her personally life.

http://www.amazon.com/Without-William-Pappas-Chris-Murray/dp/1565070291/ 

natschuster said...

Anonymous at 1:48

So as long as you aren happy, the rest of the world doesn't matter?

Joseph:

Happiness by itelsf is a difficult thing to quantify. Atheists say Scandanavia is a secular paradise. But the suicide rate is very high. A better way to gauge happiness is to look at things like suicide rates, self destrucitve behavior, etc. All the studies show that religious people do better in theses areas.

Abe:

Alfred Kinsey wrote that homomsexuality was very rare among Orthodox Jews.

ksil said...

Super Christian Kirk Cameron says Stephen Hawking is WRONG about the non-existence of Heaven -- Kirk -- who is HUGELY active in his evangelist church -- tells TMZ Hawking has no scientific evidence to back his claim that Heaven is merely a, "Fairy story for people afraid of the dark."

Cameron tells us, "Professor Hawking is heralded as 'the genius of Britain,' yet he believes in the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything and that life sprang from non-life."

He adds, "Why should anyone believe Mr. Hawking's writings if he cannot provide evidence for his unscientific belief that out of nothing, everything came?"

there you go! JP and nat are both wrong! I am now going to accept jesus so that i make to heaven!

NC said...

JP:

Does it occur to you, that like every religious evangelical or corporate marketing scheme, you presume to have the solution for other people's happiness and well-being?

Doesn't it seem arrogant of you, to presume, that because of some life choice that you made which presumably worked for you, that everybody else is "broken" and can be all fixed up by the same formula?

Don't you think that some people might be miserable in your lifestyle?

I emphasize that I have no problem with Judaism. My beef against Herediism is that you sacrifice intellectual independence and honesty, for the sake of collective unity, phony "purity", and rabbinic authority. Once somebody is a "gadol", he can't be wrong.

jewish philosopher said...

"I am now going to accept jesus so that i make to heaven!"

Well, it makes more sense than evolution.

"you presume to have the solution for other people's happiness and well-being?"

I can just tell you that Judaism works a lot better than atheism.

"My beef against Herediism is that you sacrifice intellectual independence and honesty, for the sake of collective unity, phony "purity", and rabbinic authority. Once somebody is a "gadol", he can't be wrong."

That's exactly my problem with atheism. Watch Expelled No Intelligence Allowed.

http://www.amazon.com/Expelled-Intelligence-Allowed-Ben-Stein/dp/B001BYLFFS

ksil said...

"Well, it makes more sense than evolution."

huh?

since when is the replacement for believing in jesus christ my lord and savior, the study of the science of evolution?!?!?! (no belief there)

thats crazy talk!

NC said...

"I can just tell you that Judaism works a lot better than atheism"

Maybe for YOU it does.

"That's exactly my problem with atheism."

So a rabbi from 100 years ago who incorrectly concluded that electricity is "fire" or "building" or "cooking" or whatever, is binding on you, even though it makes no logical sense and has no correspondence with modern physics. Or because of clinging to primitive notions about death and afterlife heredim don't donate organs, but are happy to receive them from other people. That is the ultimate evil.

That is the blind obedience to authority that I despise. No such authority exists in "atheism". Sure, there are politics, debates, and no shortage of hypocrites in any society. But there is no comparison between the two when it comes to suspension of individual intellect and deference to authority.

Anonymous said...

Seems like many, many people are dissatisfied with Orthodox Judaism. Every day, new bloggers and facebookers start posting about their unhappiness with Jewish belief and the strangling requirements of orthodox Jewry. They tell of their own experiences and those of their family and neighbors.

You can say all you want that OJ is your path to "true" happiness or that it's better than atheism, but it sure seems like the opposite is true.

jewish philosopher said...

"since when is the replacement for believing in jesus christ my lord and savior, the study of the science of evolution?!?!?!"

Same thing really. Jesus is the god of Christians, evolution is the god of atheists.

"Maybe for YOU it does."

So there are many people who would not benefit from a positive attitude, healthy lifestyle and strong community. Who are those people?

"That is the ultimate evil."

200,000 people are this minute being tortured to death by atheists in prison camps.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/images-reveal-scale-north-korean-political-prison-camps-2011-05-03

But refusing to donate ones own organs in certain circumstances

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/635401/jewish/Organ-Donation.htm

is so much worse.

"No such authority exists in "atheism"."

Sure it does. Darwin.

"Seems like many, many people are dissatisfied with Orthodox Judaism."

Sure. Just like many people are very dissatisfied with being clean and sober. Cocaine and heroin are so much more exciting. And exciting it probably is. But are drug users happier? Not so much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOPOK24g9Cc

Abe said...

"natschuster said...

Alfred Kinsey wrote that homomsexuality was very rare among Orthodox Jews."

He obviously never interviewed or scientificaly investigated all those same-sex dancing partners.

OTD said...

Natschuster: >All the studies show that religious people do better in theses areas.

Where are these studies?

OTD said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
natschuster said...

Abe:

There is a big difference between dancing and sex.

Ksil:

Belief in evolution requires blind faith in science that eventually all the problems will be solved.

natschuster said...

OTD:

Here's one:

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

There are more. This was at the top of the Google search list.

natschuster said...

Ksil:

Here's an example:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110502110622.htm

But blind faith in evoltuion means that an answer will be found someday.

OTD said...

Forget Google. Are you unable to cite even one study?

ksil said...

"evolution is the god of atheists."

"blind faith in science"

send me some of the drugs you guys are on!

blind faith in science? do you have blind faith in science when you use your computer? or your cell phone? or fly on an airplane? your talking crazy!!

we've gone through this before. NOT believing in jesus, moses, mohamed and santa claus does not mean i BELIEVE in anything.

you are also an atheist. you dont believe in zeus

jewish philosopher said...

Atheism is simply the religion which teaches that the Biblical God does not exist and evolution created us.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheism-in-nutshell.html

ksil said...

you almost got it

Atheism is simply the religion which teaches that the Biblical God (and zeus and buddha and muhamad and santa claus and the flying spaghetti monster) does not exist and we continue to use scientific tools to determine how the physical world evolved to what it is today and hopefully one day explain "how" it got here (or maybe it was here all along!! like your god!)

"evolution" did not create anything

I dont have all the answers, but i definately know what the answers are not! god did not give a book to someone on a mountain (did they even have paper or prchment back then? what did god write with? a sharpie?)

it was made up many many moons ago to explain things like rain, rainbows, tornados, tsunamis, floods, sickness.

we know better nowadays - its too bad you would like to rewind the clock 700 years and pretend. i feel bad for your brainwashed kids

jewish philosopher said...

"but i definately know what the answers are not!"

And can you explain to me exactly how you know? Was the truth revealed to you at a local strip club?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/07/of-course-its-all-about-science.html

Lol.

ksil said...

you have problems with your eyes?

I DO NOT KNOW

got it that time?

what does a strip club have to do with anything?

jewish philosopher said...

I know you don't know anything, that's obvious. Lol.

Nate said...

I love this blog. So much truth from the blogger vs so much heresy & falsehood from the rest. So funny about Ksil, the guy who send his daughters to BY yet speaks kefira openly. Hope the administration doesnt find out. They will surely expel the girls.

natschuster said...

Ksil:

I get it now. Technology gave us the cell phone, so science will answer all the big questions someday. I envy you your simple, pure, blind faith in science. I wish I had your faith. I'm too much of a realist, however. I have to follow the evidence. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

natschuster said...

OTD:

I sited a study in my post above. I posted the URL. http Anyway, here it is again:


You can do more research and find somemore.

natschuster said...

OTD:

Here's the study I posted in my post above.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

You can do the research anmd find some more. But I guess as long as you're happy, the rest of the wordl doesn't matter. I see that a lot in the atheists I talk to. "I'm happy, so nobody needs religion."

natschuster said...

Sorry for the double post. I hit the publish key before I was done

Anyway, here are two examples of how blind faith plays a role in accepting evolution:


http://www.geneticarchaeology.com/research/Discovery_of_jumping_gene_cluster_tangles_tree_of_life.aspe.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110502110622.html


all problems are just explained away because evolution just had to happen.

ksil said...

nate, "They will surely expel the girls."

Ha'levai! break free from the chains. i would love that. (btw, some teachers at the school know about my views, yet my girls are still enrolled, go figure!)

question for you nate, i was taught that judaism values questions, debate, examining evidence, logical conclusions (e.g. gemara!) yet you seem to imply that we should blindly follow, without thought, without examining. where do you get that from? bais yaakov surely encourages my girls to ask.

natschuster, you clearly do not follow evidence, but that is ok if you think you are, you can delude yourself to think whatever you want! enjoy your life!

jewish philosopher said...

Ksil, I think your situation is pretty obvious. You want to have sex with anything that moves, yet you don't want to feel guilty about, yet you don't want to leave the orthodox community because you know how bad things are elsewhere. Therefore you choose to remain in the community but as a secret atheist and hypocrite. It's amazing to me that you can look in the mirror without puking.

natschuster said...

Ksil:

I find it interesting that you rarely actually site evidence. You just make assertions. Yet you criticize my use of the evidence. It must be due to your simple, pure, blind faith in science. Or maybe it is a form of "emunas chachomim," your chachomim being the scientists. Well, scientists have gotten it wrong too many times, and have been guilty of too much fraud over the years for me to place that much faith in them. Agian, I'm too much of a realist to share your faith.

NC said...

"So there are many people who would not benefit from a positive attitude, healthy lifestyle and strong community. Who are those people?"

There are many paths to that besides Herediism.

ksil said...

have you ever seen me mention sex? ever? the only time it is mentioned by me is when i voice how disgusted i am at the obssession the frum world seems to have with sex, how women dress, sepration of boys and girls. OCD-like. pathetic.

not sure why/where you mention that i want to have sex with anything.

i dont want to leave the orthodox community, but not for the reason you state. actually, i wouldnt even say it that way. i cant leave. i am stuck. and there are some positives to the community in which i live.

the one downside in this community is the people like you and nate (unfortunately there are many in the city i live in) - other than those guys, it seems to be ok (the angst i feel KNOWING I am living a lie surely makes it hard to look in the mirrr sometimes, but i have yet to puke.

Nate said...

Ksil: I'm all for asking, just as per your own words it's what Talmud is all about. Your problem is that if you don't find satisfying answers, then you assume it's all nonsense or never happened and can be dismissed outright.
Since you know so much, how about you show me where in the Gemara you see any evidence of someone who doesn't get the answer or proof they want turn to denigrating Torah and its Holy Rabbanim.
No question is stupid, but you haven't learned that not every question deserves an answer, nor does every question have an answer, specifically one that you can understand, anyway. In the end, yes, we are required to follow blindly, because that is what God wants. That's what Naaseh v'Nishma was all about. The mitzah is the same regardless of your understanding of it. You get no more reward for doing it because you understand it than if you don't. All Chazal agree that doing it just because we are told to gets the bigger reward. Even the ones you have reasons for that you do understand are not necessarily there for the reason you think or have been told.
God said it, we do it. Don't ask how I "know" God said it, cuz I'm not going to get into a circular debate with you. Even if you don't "know", do it anyway. Sorta like you did what your parents told you to do.

jewish philosopher said...

"There are many paths to that besides Herediism."

Plenty of religions have cloned off of Judaism. However why settle for a cheap imitation when you can have the original?

"have you ever seen me mention sex?"

Did you ever hear Dominique Strauss-Kahn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Strauss-Kahn

mention sex? By the way, as a former Communist, I assume that he too is one of your esteemed rationalist atheist colleagues.

"i cant leave. i am stuck."

Plenty of baalei tshuvah and converts to Judaism don't seem to have a problem.

ksil said...

"Plenty of religions have cloned off of Judaism" (plenty have not!)


"Plenty of baalei tshuvah and converts to Judaism don't seem to have a problem." (plenty do!)

you use the word plenty a lot, i wonder why.

did that french dude do what he did becasue he is an atheist? or he happens to be one. (he is jewish, btw, so i guess you could say it was his jewish upbringing that turned him into a sex fiend)

jewish philosopher said...

He was an atheist. Part of your religion. Face it: atheists are nuts.

I have only been able to find one documented case of a nice atheist and he regretted being an atheist.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/01/chandra-good-atheist.html

ksil said...

maybe jews are nuts

(you are doing your best to support that, i know)

OTD said...

Natschuster: there are a number of problems with your line of reasoning.

First of all, the findings of these studies are highly controversial. There is no simple formula to success in life, and oversimplified rambling such as yours only serves to muddy the waters and obscure the truth that much more. First of all, the suicide study you cite includes data from assisted suicide. Yaaah, assisted suicide may be more common among atheists, but is that really what we're trying to measure? I didn't think so.

Second of all, you say, "lots of studies show that religious people tnd (sic) to have less, anti-social and self destrcutive behaviors. And they tend to be more generous and altruistic." Where are all these studies? All you cited was some garbage about suicide. As you say yourself, "we have to look at the numbers if we want to be scientific." What numbers, Natschuster?

Since you're so keen on numbers, what do you say about the study that found atheist incarceration much lower than that of the general population?

Here's what idiots like yourself and Garnel either don't realize or are deliberately ignoring: These studies are far from conclusive, and even if they were conclusive, it is extremely dangerous socially to bandy about these numbers. Gay suicide rates are extremely high? So what? American incarceration rates are drastically higher than that of the rest of the world. Az mah? Black incarceration rates are also way out of whack. Nu. To start making your racist assertions based on this kind of data is playing with fire. To throw these numbers around reveals you to be nothing more than an insensitive, opportunistic blowhard who is more than willing to throw any sort of objectivity or professionalism out the window to score some cheap points on a blog.

Besides, here are some points from the article you cited that betrays your simplistic, pathetic meandering obfuscations.

"Although there is a strong
statistically significant correlation linking religious belief and practice to lower levels of suicide, it is not reasonable to use this correlation to broadly generalize about the merits of any particular belief system. Simply put, most people eat food, have families, work or go to school. But only a tiny fraction of any population ever commits suicide. Suicide is a statistical anomaly and is not a generally applicable demographic measure.

If your "discussion" of the relative merits of your belief system devolves into pointing out the suicide rate within a specific population, then you have already lost the argument, because you have abandoned substantitive dialogue in favor of an appeal to tangential sensationalism.

natschuster said...

Ksil:

You tell me I am misusing evidence, yet you make assertions without providing any evidence, I guess its becuase a person with your simple, pure, blind faith doesn't need evidence.

jewish philosopher said...

Actually, ksil, we are allegedly the children of Satan.

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=71033

jewish philosopher said...

Lol

onionsoupmix said...

Orthodoxy is supposed to make people happier? Huh. I guess I will have to let my many frum pill-popping anxious and depressed friends know. I thought it was the high cost of yeshiva tuition or maybe pesach cleaning or maybe pricey kosher food that was making them stressed and depressed, but you are right JP, they probably just haven't realized that they are supposed to be happier than everyone else.

jewish philosopher said...

I wrote "happier" not "happy". If they were atheists they would not be on medication; they'd be dead.

natschuster said...

OTD:

I read about a study done in England in 2000, that surveyed prison populations in England. There were very few people who identified themselves as atheists. But thenumber of people who said they had no religion, or belonged to no religion exceeded the number in the general population by 200%. IMHO, there are two kinds of atheists. The educated ones that call themselves atheists, and the uneducated ones that just say they don't believe in G-d and then do bad stuff.

Abe said...

"natschuster said...

There is a big difference between dancing and sex."

If you have a natural, inherent attraction for women, you would be drawn to the opposite sex for a dancing partner. Apparently most of those chareidi same-sex dancing partners simply use halacha as a as a convenient pretext to release those unbearable urges in public. However, they would find much greater sexual comfort if they would patronize their local gay bar.

natschuster said...

OTD:

Yes, its true that happiness is a hard thing to study scientifically. But these studies are the best stuff we've got.
But if religion means less suicide then that is a real benefit that religion provides. I can't think of a better way to gauge happiness in a population than suicide rates. And since suicide rates are something real, they are substantive by definition, and not tangential sensationalism. But, I guess, like your fellow atheist Stalin, you lots of people dying as just a statistic, just tangential sensationalism.




And it isn't just suicide rates. There's other forms of self-destructive and anti-social behaviors as well.
Here's a study:

http://www.monitoringthefuture.org/pubs/occpapers/occ58.pdf


And religious people are more generous and altruistic.

natschuster said...

Abe:

How is it apparent?

NC said...

"And religious people are more generous and altruistic."

OK, a partial list of "happier" people:

Muslim jihadis
Jews for Jesus
Scientologists
Evangelical Christians
Hindus
Buddhists
Mary Kay sales associates
Hopi Native Americans


Take any cohesive group, have them believe in something and traditions, and give mutual support, and they are happy.

Nate, Nathan and JP, your preaching and bragging really sounds silly and naive. Kind of like me trying to tell everybody to be orthoprax and it will make them happier because it made me happier. What a great life! I get to whack the monkey one minute and go to shul the next!

You seem to hearken back to some idealized society that never actually existed and can never come about.

jewish philosopher said...

I'm simply making a point that, for obvious reasons, all else being equal, an Orthodox Jew will be significantly happier than an atheist. It's like a doctor saying that all else being equal, a non-smoker will be significantly more healthy than a smoker.

I don't see any comment which has yet refuted this.

natschuster said...

NC:

I'm telling people to do the research.

OTD said...

Natschuster: >IMHO, there are two kinds of atheists.

IMHO you are the stupidest man alive.

>But these studies are the best stuff we've got.

It's actually the worst, because douchebags like you either entirely twist the numbers or pull them whole cloth out of your tuchas.

>I can't think of a better way to gauge happiness in a population than suicide rates.

I can't think of a stupider thing ever written on this blog. If I were as moronic as you, I would certainly off myself. In a heartbeat.

>like your fellow atheist Stalin, you lots (sic) of people dying

like your fellow theist Hitler you're a sick piece of shit. Go fuck yourself, you stupid bastard.

The new study you cite is not peer reviewed or published in any reputable journal. And all it measures is the effects of race and religion on drug use. Didn't you already claim that *suicide* data are the most relevant?

>And religious people are more generous and altruistic.

Where are the numbers, genius?

You're not Jewish, by the way, are you? Why do I find you on all the Christian apologist sites? I don't typically think highly of frum trolls, but I can say to their slight credit that I know of none as idiotic as yourself.

jewish philosopher said...

Just for the record, the Nazis were basically atheists.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/03/were-nazis-atheists.html

NC said...

"I'm simply making a point that, for obvious reasons, all else being equal, an Orthodox Jew will be significantly happier than an atheist. "

You're claiming more than that. You're claiming causation, because you are exhorting people to become Orthodox Jews because it will make them happier. That is implied by the title of the post. That is different than saying that Orthodox Jews are happier. Association is not causation.

jewish philosopher said...

And don't bring up the well know fact that the belt of Nazi soldiers said "Gott mit Uns" ("God is with us"). In fact, that was only the regular German army and preceded the Nazi era.

http://worldwarrelics.blogspot.com/2009/02/gott-mit-uns-belt-buckle.html

The SS uniform belt buckle was inscribed with only the SS motto"Meine Ehre hei├čt Treue ("My Honour is Loyalty")  

http://www.ioffer.com/i/waffen-ss-em-steel-belt-buckle-198498770?source=eisi

"That is different than saying that Orthodox Jews are happier."

How do you know tobacco causes cancer? Could be coincidence. That's exactly what tobacco companies did claim for decades.

Abe said...

"natschuster said...
Abe:

How is it apparent?"

It is apparent because absent any same-sex attraction, those yeshiva buchrim would exhibit normal heterosexual tendencies. And they do not exhibit normal heterosexual tendencies. Their surreptitious desire for homosexual contact rises to the surface when ultra-orthodox halacha abets that same-sex relationship.
It facts are statisticaly undeniable.

OTD said...

Sorry, meant this one.

OTD said...

^(Refuting JP's claim above that the Nazis were atheists.)

jewish philosopher said...

Abe, are you looking for a date? I'm not sure you'll find it in your local yeshiva. But try it.

OTD, my little pea brained penis thinker, can you please explain why the devoutly theistic, catholic Nazis did not bother to utter even one prayer while facing certain death in Hitler's bunker?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F├╝hrerbunker

With an IQ like yours, how can you even walk and breathe at the same time? It's a miracle.

ksil said...

the nazis were religious

they worshiped hitler

Whats so bad about the nazis, JP?

#1 they were just doing god's will and

#2 you dont have a problem with murdering people, do you? i know orhtodox judaism wants to kill all of amalek, man woman and child. plus you want to kill gays. and nate wants to kill arabs/muslims (for some reason). so your moral compass should not be going off here. the act they did was not immoral (it was just against your people, so you object!)

jewish philosopher said...

"the nazis were religious"

Of course they were. Like you, their religion was atheism, as I explain here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/03/were-nazis-atheists.html

Their political beliefs were not a religion. Even if you love Obama, that's not considered to be a religion.

"you dont have a problem with murdering people, do you"

Sure I do. The Torah says "Don't murder" Exodus 20:12

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm#12 

However I can still support the death penalty in some cases. And the Biblical wars have no relevance today, as I explain here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html

natschuster said...

I remembered another response to the asserttion that very few atheists are incarcerated. There is a phenomenon called jailhouse conversion. People commit crimes, get caught, then find religion in prison. Some of the religious people in prison might have benn atheists when they commoted their crimes.

jewish philosopher said...

The fact is that outside of communist or former communist countries I think few people actually call themselves atheists and those who do are generally white college graduates who are not very prone to be criminals, or to get caught anyway.

What I think would be a very interesting statistic is: what effect does weekly worship have on criminal behavior? Meaning if we would survey convicted felons and ask them if, at the time of the commission of the felony, did they attend at least once weekly worship services, and compare that to the percentage of Americans who overall worship weekly, would the felons be more or less likely to worship than average?

My guess is: felons 2% general population 20%.

My brother is a cop and says he seldom arrests staunch church goers.

I suspect that this simple study has never been done since academics are primarily atheists and prefer not to research this.

natschuster said...

Abe:

Would you be so kind as to provide some statistics that support your assertion? I, at least, sited Kinsey.


OTD:

The examples I sited where just that, examples. There are more. You can do the research.
I, at least am attempting to provide evidence for my what I'm saying. But, I guess, being an atheist, your belief systems are entirely faith based. You don't need evidence.


And can you think of a better way to guage the happiness of a population than suicide rates? I can't.

Now, if you read "Mein Kampf" and Hitelr's second book, you will find that Hitler was, in all probability, a pantheist. He worshipped nature and science. He had a more utilitarian apporach to conventional religion. He wrote that it was useful for structuring society, but that it was time to move on to a scientific, race based approach. Some of the nice things he said about Catholicism, he said early in his career, when he was doing what politicians do best, and lying for votes. Some of his later speaches reveal a different attitude, more utilitarian approach.

I sited a paper on drug abuse because I understood you to be saying that suicide rates aren't enough to measure happiness, so I provided more.

The book "Who Really Cares" published Oct. 2006 sites studies that show that religious people are more charitable. I'd do a google search for more data, but you will just disregard it.

It is news to me that I post on all the Christian apologist sites. I only regularly post here, and on "Darwins-G-d." Which is a science site. I occasionally post on "VoxDay" but that is mostly about social, political, and economic issues. Maybe you could tell me which Christian sites I post on.

natschuster said...

OTD:

Okay, okay, here's a study on religion and generosity:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122807/Religious-Attendance-Relates-Generosity-Worldwide.aspx

Ill be back soon with more.

natschuster said...

Here's another one:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=f4e57e61-f6ed-4afd-a297-4d3b136e4fd7

natschuster said...

Here's another one:

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577

You get the idea.

natschuster said...

Here's another one:


http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577

Abe said...

"natschuster said...
Abe:

Would you be so kind as to provide some statistics that support your assertion? I, at least, sited Kinsey."

The statistics are right in front of your eyes. The yeshiva buchrim dance only with boys and men, and the men dance only with other men and smaller boys. ....
I didn't even mention the pedophelia attractions, but the inferences are undeniable and the facts/statistics are incontrovertible.
They exhibit same sex attractions.

jewish philosopher said...

So Abe, go for it. Send me the wedding photos when you marry some yeshiva guy.

Abe said...

"jewish philosopher said...
So Abe, go for it. Send me the wedding photos when you marry some yeshiva guy."

I am not gay, but a few of my many friends are. They tell me that that when horny, the best place to troll for sex, is opposite the bais medrish, especially after the first learning seder of tractate Sanhedrin listing all the painful punishments for sexual misdeeds.

jewish philosopher said...

Come out of closet Abe. You see a photo of a couple young guys and you're apparently drooling all over your computer.

NC said...

Guys this is getting really stupid.

"You're gay"

"No, you are!"

"No, you are!"

"How do you know tobacco causes cancer? Could be coincidence. That's exactly what tobacco companies did claim for decades."

You need to learn a little about association and causation. i know I've written about this before. In social sciences and epidemiology there's something called "confounding" variables. When examining an apparent association between two things, these "confounders" are factors that distort, suppress, or magnify the association, and represent to true cause. Like you could show that using matches is associated with cancer, and conclude that it causes cancer. This is nonsense of course, because the real cause is smoking, which is associated with both using matcihes and cancer.

In the case of American Orthodox Jews, the likely confounders are socioeconomic factors like income, education, being part of a tight knit group with strong social support, etc. Some of things might equally apply to Jews in general. So you can't conclude that orthodoxy "causes" happiness.

natschuster said...

Abe:

So when I dance with my boys at their bar mitzvas I was attracted?
Again, dancing isn't sex. And some evidence, data, statistics, anything at all on same sex attraction among Orthodox men fom you would be nice.

And it is very possible that the rate of pedophilia in the Jewish Community is less than that of the general population. reported ratesof sexual abuse b public school teachers run from 3% to
25%. I don't think it is that high among OJ's.

jewish philosopher said...

I suspect Abe is a lesbian. A lot of drama.

Truth is, I probably allow too much trolling.

Ultimately, causation seems to be a judgement call and can never be absolutely proven, particularly when we are talking about the behavior of societies which cannot be reduced to a repeatable, small scale laboratory experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation#Determining_causation

I'm simply trying to make a point that, for obvious reasons, all else being equal, an Orthodox Jew will be significantly happier than an atheist.

I don't see any comment which has yet refuted this.

ksil said...

amish are happier than orthodox jews.

i'm converting!

i come to watch these stupid arguments stated over and over and over and over and over and over again

jewish philosopher said...

Ksil, first of all (beyond just a desire to be obnoxious to a believing Jew), why do you say that?

Secondly, you probably can't do it.

http://www.amishnews.com/publishersmessages/wanttobeamish.htm

NC said...

Here's a story about a "happy" Orthodox Jew

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4072784,00.html

Would you want to dance with him at a wedding?

ksil said...

"believing jew" - arrogant, trolling, oboxious, abusive jew maybe.

why do i say what? that amish are probably happoer than orthodox jews, all else being equal?

myabe you are right and i cant do it, but i should at least try. its probably true, you know, if they are generally happier

jewish philosopher said...

NC, I think this is called a non sequitur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)

I do have another post about Orthodox crime which you might like to review.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

Ksil, I'm for it. Go become Amish. First of all, it will keep you away from Jews whom you no doubt badly influence and secondly you'll stop trolling. Lol.

Joe said...

You need a new post, this is getting out of hand, from boredom.

natschuster said...

Ksil:

Most of the Amish I've seen seem sort of morose. Maybe tha'ts because i've seen them out of they're own environment, and htey don't feel comfortable. I know that this is only anecdotal, but for whatever its worth, my experience has been that OJ's appear happier than the Amish.

The Witnesses, however, do seem very friendly.