Tuesday, April 05, 2011

Whose Fault Is It?


[Muslims burn stuff too.]

The New York Times today noted:

So Terry Jones, the Florida pastor who organized a Koran burning on March 20, wanted “to stir the pot.” Mission accomplished. Perhaps he’d care to explain himself to the family of Joakim Dungel, a 33-year-old Swede slaughtered at the U.N. mission in Mazar-i-Sharif by Afghans whipped into frenzy through Jones’s folly.

I wonder if the Times holds all crime victims responsible for the behavior of the perpetrators - are rapists whipped into a frenzy by the sight of young women walking in the street, are robbers whipped into a frenzy by the sight of fur coats and jewelry, should the victims be punished instead of or along with the criminals?

I'm not a supporter of Pastor Jones; I wouldn't waste my money buying and burning a Koran. However the attitude of the Times implies that we must rush to appease murderers. I don't think that's a wise strategy. Ultimately, there is no end to it and the criminals themselves must bear sole responsibility.

18 comments:

NC said...

Agreed 100%

Let's see what Shalmo/YC has to say. I'm sure he'll find some convoluted way to either defend the extremist's actions, or say that Jews are no better.

There is nothing like a self-hating Jew in terms of antisemitism. He has to be a real nut case to convert to Islam of all things.

jewish philosopher said...

Sadly, this Times article was apparently written by a Jew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Cohen

JRKmommy said...

For once, I agree with you.

Toward the end of the Times piece, Cohen does condemn the violence and calls on other Muslims to do the same - but in the newspaper business, the order of placement matters, and the first paragraph was devoted to criticizing Jones and blaming him for the murders.

I would have preferred an editorial on the meaning of free speech and freedom of religion.

jewish philosopher said...

I'm afraid its typical liberal drivel. America is strong, Muslims are weak, the weak are always right. It makes liberals feel less guilty about their personal lives to publicly always support the weaker side.

I believe pre-1967, European liberals commonly supported Israel.

JRKmommy said...

Question:

Do those who blame Jones for incitement treat those who burn the US flag the same way?

If not, why not?

Is there a sort of racism in holding different expectations of different groups?

JRKmommy said...

Ironically, holding different groups to different standards and having different expectations when it comes to freedoms goes against classic liberal philosophy.

Irshad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Tarek Fatah and others have spoken out against this sort of racism - and it IS racist to suggest that westerners are the only ones who should live with liberty and freedom, instead of violence and repression.

jewish philosopher said...

Liberalism basically means: always support the weak; they can do know wrong. Don't you have any compassion.

However how liberals treat their own family and friends is a different matter. See Lennon for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_John_Lennon

NC said...

Its interesting that the liberals in Denmark had the moral clarity and courage to defend and stand behind the cartoonists who depicted Mohammed as a bomber, in the name of free speech.

Unfortunately America under Obama is slowly adopting the British folly of excusing and explaining away Muslim violence due to real or imagined grievances against the west, while muzzling free speech out of "religious sensitivity" and fear of offending the Muslims.

Shalmo/YC said...

First off, hearty congratulations to JP for finally prying his head out of his ass and acknowledging events in the real world.

@ N[eo]C[on]:

I love how you assume that Muslims are all part of some hive mind. If one Muslim supports terrorism, then all Muslims support terrorism. Swap "Muslim(s)" for "Jew(s)" and "terrorism" for some stereotypically Jewish activity and tell me how stereotyping of Muslims is perfectly acceptable.

Do I condone the actions of these idiots who call themselves Muslims? HELL NO! Granted, Terry Jones is a stupid ignorant white trash piece of shit and I do not condone such sacrilege, but that in no way justifies violent retaliation, particularly against innocent bystanders.

And Jews are (often) no better. Speaking of Muslims burning the American flag, get a look at these treacherous Haredi hypocrites burning the Israeli flag.

(The difference is that I plan on leaving Palestine as soon as I am able so I don't have to pay taxes to the Jewish state. Contrast that with self-righteous Neturei Karta types who leech off the benefits of the very State of Israel that they declare an abomination unto HaShem.)

P.S. NC, I do not mind debating you, your defamatory allegations notwithstanding. You at least are capable of intelligent thought unlike the Jewish (lobotomized) Philosopher and the gerbil who dwells in his anus (Nathan, whom we all know is REALLY JP after signing off).

NC said...

Shalmo-- I thought you had Canadian citizenship. What keeps you here in wretched Israel?

Notwithstanding the problems in Israeli society (and there are many) Muslims fare far better here than they do in any Arab country, and probably most Muslim countries as well. Indonesia, Azerbaijan, and Turkey come to mind as exceptions. Muslims/Arabs can appeal to the supreme court and get a fair hearing. Their MK's can scream their heads off in the Knesset and call Israeli leaders and army officials child murderers, without disappearing. And they benefit from the relatively generous benefits of Israel's socialist system including child payments, health care, and social security payments. Yes, there is discrimination, but Muslims are not the only victims of social injustice here.

Israel must settle its problems with the Palestinians, although I have no great wisdom how. At this point the Palestinians feel empowered and therefore feel no need to negotiate, and will wait for the Europeans and Americans to force Israel into a settlement. Perhaps they're correct. In the meantime the Pal economy (at least in the West Bank, where do you live?) is booming, quality of life is rising, despite Israeli "occupation". Unfortunately, the conflict can only be managed, no solved.

So why do you have so much venom regarding your former co-religionists? You could have found a comfortable place among Israel's leftists. Read Haaretz. Its as anti-Zionist as any Arab newspaper. Presumably, you cut yourself off from your whole Jewish family (here you have an ironic similarity to JP). Or, if you were seeking spirituality, there are many Jewish revival movements. Did you marry a Muslim?

Jewboy said...

"The difference is that I plan on leaving Palestine as soon as I am able so I don't have to pay taxes to the Jewish state."

Good. Go back to Mecca. Jewrusalem means nothing to you muslims. Take your camel worshiping ass (which you point at Jewrusalem when you pray) and go!

Jewboy said...

Oh and take your NK friends with you.

JRKmommy said...

The classic historical definition of liberalism was supporting maximum liberty, following the philosophy of John Stuart Mill. A key component is that the individual should be free to do as they please unless it causes harm to another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill

As a non-American, the American (mis)usage of the term "liberal" is a source of amusement and irritation. Elsewhere, liberal parties are often centrist or even right-wing. What is called liberal in the US is often really Keynesian economics, while the modern trend in liberal/left/socialist political thought has totally abandoned the principles of classical liberalism, in which anything associated with the US is subject to hyper-criticism and anything against the US gets apologetics.

Boxed Whine said...

Philosopher. I am not fond of you, but as a conservative, I have to agree with you.

Tova said...

"I believe pre-1967, European liberals commonly supported Israel."

That's actually true, as well as heavily documented. When Israel was still seen as 'the underdog', many on the Left admired and supported it.

...I'm still waiting for you to give me your address so I can send you a hair sample that you can test to prove I do not use illegal substances.

jewish philosopher said...

I've even got a photo of the house.

http://jacobstein-mystory.blogspot.com/2007/02/my-house-2007-wesley-hill-ny.html

But your hair has to come with your head attached; how else do I know it's yours?

Tova said...

I'll pay you a visit someday, JP...as long as I can bring my Sig 9mm.

Shalmo said...

JP that Shalmo/YC guy is not me. Someone else using my 'anonymous' name (check the ISP address)

Its clearly SJ or Garnel doing their usual trolling !