Thursday, April 28, 2011

The Death Penalty and Me


[Senator Coburn - Republican, Oklahoma. He tells it like it is.]

A number of months ago I was expelled from a nursing school because of a my opinion that male to male anal intercourse should be punished by death. Looking at comments on several posts I have written on this subject, I have been compared to a Nazi war criminal by some people, along with various unprintable other names. Gays are glamorized today as a "sexual minority" while sodomy is a "human right", ideas most people would never dream of applying to pedophiles, for example.

I came across today a statement made a few years ago by Tom Coburn, currently United States Senator from Oklahoma. In a 2004 interview he declared that he favors the death penalty for "abortionists and other people who take life."

It's interesting that when a southern Christian politician makes a statement condemning to death thousands of licensed American physicians, he can be elected to one of the highest offices in the country by a wide margin. If a Jewish blogger in New York makes a similar statement, he won't be allowed to change a bedpan.

56 comments:

ksil said...

so, if his constituents agree with his warped view and elect him, he must be right?

interesting logic

i guess hitler had the right approach too (instead of kill gays, it was kill jews) becasue his constituents agreed with him

makes a ton of sense (as usual)

Abe said...

Stein, what condemns you as a schizoid and obsessed crackpot is your comparison of abortion (which may or not be considered murder, depending on the term of the fetus)
with gay sex, which causes no harm if engaged in a protective manner ( and that caution may be applied to heterosexual sex also).
You are the unfortunate product of a decrepit, superstitious, murderous philosophy and an advancing neurotic breakdown. The confluence of the two aren't very pretty. They just get you expelled.

While many persons may have disagreed with Coburn's rigid stance on abortion, he had many other laudible political positions which overcame his anti-abortion negatives. I disagree with much but not all of his positions on abortion, but would have probably voted for him, considering the alternative candidate.
You on the other hand, have no redeeming qualities, whatsoever. You're just plain nuts, although clever enough to attract a few of us for a daily touch of your clownish amusement. ( However, I'm going to ask my Rabbi if its permissable to be entertained by someone as mentaly deranged as you are, so I may not be back)

But what do I know? I'm just a sex-addicted, atheist drug addict. ( I thought I'd save you your tired efforts of rebranding me as such.)

BTW, Coburn was not in favor of killing anybody. See below:

According to Cybercast News Service, in July 2004 the Associated Press quoted then-Representative Tom Coburn as saying, "I favor the death penalty for abortionists and other people who take life."

A few days later, Coburn added, “My contention for the death penalty is, if you intentionally take innocent life, you ought to be open to the death penalty." According to the Oklahoman, Coburn continued, "Do I think abortionists should be put to death right now? No. You can't do it. [Abortion] is legal. I don't think it should be legal."

jewish philosopher said...

I just think it's rather interesting how much America has been brainwashed by homosexuals.

If a nurse were to pull into a hospital parking lot with a bumper sticker saying "abortion is murder" no one would bat an eye. No one would dream of kicker her out of the hospital because she "wants to kill the doctors". Everyone understands that this is a legitimate (minority) opinion based on the Bible. However if I blog "enact death penalty for sodomy" based on my equally legitimate opinion based on that same Bible, all hell suddenly breaks loose.

Abe said...

You are being deliberately mendacious that you just blogged about enacting death penalty for sodomy. But I shouldn't have expected any better since illogical argumentation is the expedient of your benighted torah-view.
Yo didn't just blog.
Why don't you print the charges and judgement against you?
You harrassed students at school and created a hostile educational environment.

natschuster said...

Abe:

I'm still not clear about what your basis for saying anything in the Torah is immoral?

jewish philosopher said...

"Why don't you print the charges and judgement against you? 
You harrassed students at school and created a hostile educational environment."

I did.

http://bocesjustice.blogspot.com/

Abe said...

I know that you had already done so.
It readily confirms the allegations, your guilt and punishment -- expulsion from the school. Your family must be SO proud.

What else is there to know? Oh yeah -- god must really hate you.

Abe said...

"natschuster said...
Abe:

I'm still not clear about what your basis for saying anything in the Torah is immoral?"

I never said that anything in the Torah is immoral and if there is any implication of that by something I had noted, permit me to clarify. Certainly there is nothing immoral and only praise for *Don't Murder* or *Honor Your Father and Mother*, except perhaps when your father is crackpot that wants to murder a living, breathng human being simply because he was born a homosexual. A father like that is beyond contempt and should be accorded the same loathing as O.J Simpson.

jewish philosopher said...

"It readily confirms the allegations, your guilt and punishment"

Usually an accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process. Unless of course he's a rabbi and you are a Jewish skeptic or neo-Nazi.

" A father like that is beyond contempt and should be accorded the same loathing as O.J Simpson."

Why would you condemn someone who kills people any more than someone who kills worms.

natschuster said...

Abe:

So what is your basis for saying it is wrong to want to murder a homosexual?

ksil said...

"Why would you condemn someone who kills people any more than someone who kills worms"

because we have BRAINS and we can use LOGIC and REASON (except for you, apparently)

jewish philosopher said...

Ksil, this is really trolling; you aren't even trying to make sense.

The first fundamental principle of Darwinism is: men and animals are the same. Nothing special about humans; no image of God, no soul. Therefore killing a man is the same as killing a worm.

ksil said...

"trolling;;;;;"

pot calling kettle black

ROTFL (literally)

jewish philosopher said...

I think the word "troll" is a little overused.

Disagreeing intelligently with a blog post is not trolling.

Just writing some nonsense for the purpose of annoying people for example "because we have BRAINS and we can use LOGIC and REASON (except for you, apparently)" is trolling.

ksil said...

you are kidding. you go around to other blogs EVERY SINGLE DAY (do you work!?!??) and post nonsense. quoting all of your troll postings would fill volumes.

just today "men are merely soulless bags of chemicals who possess no free will" "you just exist, you have no moral value since you have no free choice"

posting nonsense just to annoy people

TROLL

jewish philosopher said...

No, those are embarrassing facts about atheism which atheists wish you didn't know. Lol.

ksil said...

"those are embarrassing facts...."

they are not facts and they are not comments that have anything whatsoever to do with the conversation.

they aer posted to annoy

TROLL

jewish philosopher said...

Probably you'd think telling Christopher hitchens that he had a drinking problem would have been trolling. Any inconvenient, unpleasant fact is trolling by your definition.

natschuster said...

Ksil:

Okay, how does logic show that it is worse to kill a human than it is to kill a worm?

Avi Bitterman said...

Shame. And I was totally looking forward to you being my nurse in 5 years.

NC said...

I continue in the vein of a previous post about brutal "honesty". Somestimes you keep your mouth shut, for the sake of human relations. This is not hypocrisy, its about getting along with people.

So spouting off about death penalties for gays, while studying with liberal colleagues, is just bad judgement. I think you would feel the same if one of your classmates was a American Nazi Party member who was blogging about the virtues of Hitler.

Perhaps your classmates over-reacted and framed you for things you didn't do. This is unjust. But this was a no brainer outcome of your actions.

Psychologist and sociologists have long known about "social lying". In distinction from an untruth told for the purpose of manipulation of others or for personal gain at somebody else's expense, social lying is an intrinsic part of our behavior that helps us get along with others, avoiding offending them or otherwise just getting ourselves into trouble needlessly. We use white lies all of the time with our children to build up their self-esteem. Would you tell your child that you think that he was ugly? Or stupid? Do you tell your boss everything you think about him? What about your spouse?
What if you are in a meeting at work and the woman you're sitting next to you forgot to put on deodorant that morning. Do you say, "hey, lady, you stink!"

Similarly I would consider orthopraxers keeping their theology to themselves falls in this category. Why offend people? Am I hurting anybody by wearing a kippah and going to shul, if I behave like a decent human being, even if I don't believe in the 13 ikarim? Sorry, JP, this is not hypocrisy. It may not conform to your concept of religiousity, but who cares?

One could argue that your obsessive blogging about provocative sexual topics, while going around dressed as a ultra-orthodox Jew-- would be hypocrisy.

jewish philosopher said...

"I was totally looking forward to you being my nurse in 5 years"

Actually, the homofascists probably did me a favor. At least at the present time, there are no entry level nursing jobs. People go way into student loan debt and then end up in Starbucks.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/business/675345-192/new-nursing-grads-caught-in-jobs-bind.html

"So spouting off about death penalties for gays, while studying with liberal colleagues, is just bad judgement."

To sin by silence, when we should protest, Makes cowards out of men. Ella Wheeler Wilcox

Whatever failings I have, and they are many, I have never been called a coward.

"Am I hurting anybody by wearing a kippah and going to shul, if I behave like a decent human being, even if I don't believe in the 13 ikarim?"

Why don't you ask Orthodox people how they feel about committed atheists, Christians, Muslims, whatever falsely posing as Orthodox Jews? I don't think most appreciate it. Go participate in your community and denomination whatever it is and leave us alone.

Bill said...

Dear Mr. Stein:

Gut Voch. I would wish to reply to 2 of your recent posts concerning the death penalty and suicide. As a Negro gay guy who convetted to Orthodox Judaism, I was especially intrigued by your commentary.

1.I think the reaction to your recommendation of the death penalty is to be expected in light of the inconsistency of the liberal Weltanschauung. Liberals espouse inclusion, diversity and tolerance, but apply these concepts only to those who subscribe to their hashkafa. The Torah prescribes the death penalty for adult males in who engage in prohibited sexual congress. The penalty would not be imposed if one wqas of a homosexuakl orientation and abstained from restricted acts. I clarified this with the Chabad rabbi who superintended by conversion prior to the commencement of my period of instruction. No one who embracrs Torah Judaism would object to your position.

However, certain practicalities obtain. It is highly unlikely that the conditions prequisite to the administration of the death penalty would occur (observation by 2 kosher witnessess, warning issued to the parties). Also,it is my interpretation that sodomy is not the only infraction for which the death penalty is prescribed. Would we further execute all the Conservative and Reform Jews who motor, operate electrical appliances, transact business and write on Shabbos and Yom Tov? Would Jewish men and women who marry out or violate hilchos niddah also be subject to the death penalty? These latter 2 violations may equal or supersede in severity homosexual intercourse because concomitant to their commission is kareis. I think the implementation of the death penalty must be placed in abeyance until the reinstitution of the Sanhedrin.

2. The high rate of suicide among gay men I would attribute to dissatisfaction with the quality of life associated with gayness. As Bill Buckley observed, the "gay" lifestyle is characterized by a general sense of purposeleness, which can be experienced by those religious and secular. Additionally, many gay people do not wish to be gay. Gay advocates maintain that the high suicide rate is attributable to homophobia. However, this position is refuted by the equally high suicide rates of gays in countries such as the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden, countries in which homosexual relationships are widely accepted and enjoy legal protection and recognition. No scientific evidence obtains that concludes that sexuality is immutable in all cases. As gay intellectual Camile Pagilia writes, sexuality is often fluid. I have no desire to alter my sexuality. My Torah learning andobservance, job and chesed activities fulfill me and I recived a p'sak din that I am not required to marry. Moreover, I can anticipate an immesaurable reward in Olam Haba if I refrain from the prohibited (the gemara states that HaShem himself will testify on behalf of the chaste bachelor who resides in the city). However, gays who desire to attempt alter their sexuality should be enabled to do so. Many fail to try because they have been bought into the propaganda that change is not possible and fear the opprobrium of gay askanim, who if they truly cared about the happiness and well being of gay people, would support and facilitate such efforts.

Lommer deleben Moshiach
Bill

NC said...

Bill-- I honestly wish you the best in your efforts to lead a fulfilling, meaningful, and happy life.

JP-- Indeed, in real life I leave people like you alone. I belong to a MO community, and I suspect that more than a few people harbor many of the same doubts that I do. And those who don't-- well they don't seem too interested in interrogating me or anybody else about their beliefs. I don't go around trying to convince anybody to be a skeptic, but I do discuss it with some like minded friends.

jewish philosopher said...

My question is, when you are called to the read the Torah in the synagogue, how can you publically proclaim "Blessed are You, LORD our God, king of the universe, who chose us from all the peoples and gave to us His Torah. Blessed are You, LORD, giver of the Torah." with no guilt? And if you can, can't you lie about anything to anyone?

That's why I'm concerned about people like you. Who knows what kind of embarrassing headlines you'll end up making.

NC said...

"That's why I'm concerned about people like you. Who knows what kind of embarrassing headlines you'll end up making."

Meanwhile it is you making the embarrassments, not me. I have not been fired from my job or kicked out of my school for my activities, done supposedly out of piety and concern for god.

" "Blessed are You, LORD our God, king of the universe, who chose us from all the peoples and gave to us His Torah. Blessed are You, LORD, giver of the Torah."

What is god to me? I think of that which is good in the world-- in nature and in humans, and my belonging to the Jewish people. I bless that. It is metaphorical. Do I know what goes through anybody else's head when they make the bracha? Are they thinking about the pretty woman on the other side of the mechitza? Or about the itch in their crotch? I don't care.

Years ago I led services for Rosh Hashana. Beforehand I shared my equivocation regarding my religious doubts with a close friend, and whether I should do the services. He answered me that we don't know how anybody who leads services is "judged" by god or anybody else, and who is to say that somebody else is more worthy? If my leading services can make a pleasant davening for other people, I have done my job faithfully.

So I have made my peace with it.

This obviously would not fly in a Heredi community.

jewish philosopher said...

"I have not been fired from my job or kicked out of my school for my activities"

This may come as a shock to you, however Jews are not always the world's most popular minority group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

I think I knew that when I signed up.

"So I have made my peace with it."

And so you could make peace with anything else.

I just want to clarify something incidentally: This blog is call Jewish Philosopher, not Jewish Saint, and for a good reason. I don't claim to be perfect and on the contrary I have made mistakes and I do have many flaws. All that I claim is that do believe in the principles of rabbinical Judaism and I am making some good faith attempt to live by those principles.

Joseph said...

Stein, if you are being consistent in your faith, you would not call for capital punishment for sodomy unless it was witnessed by two reliable males who warned the errant men and tried to stop the act from consummating. For that matter, you wouldn't approve of any capital punishment based on circumstantial evidence of any kind.

jewish philosopher said...

Those rules don't apply to Gentiles, which about 98% of Americans are.

ksil said...

Those rules don't apply to Gentiles

dont make shit up

jewish philosopher said...

Check out Talmud Sanhedrin 57

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_57.html

ksil said...

the talmud says a lot of things that we dont hold of.

in fact the torah says a lot of things we dont hold of. do we bring sacrifices? those are d'oraysahs! sotah? (so many examples)

you bring up the fact that it says we should kill all sorts of people, but that the jewish courts never did.

b

jewish philosopher said...

I hold of this.

ksil said...

pick and choose

i hold that the issur on male to make anal intercourse is no longer valid.

jewish philosopher said...

I accept all Talmudic law.

ksil said...

no you dont. thats a lie

jewish philosopher said...

Oh yes I do. I'm a Talmud guy.

Anonymous said...

In your bio you mentioned that you are a convert to judaism. That means that before you converted at some point, you broke the sabbath during that time. The tanakh does not have a special condemnation for sodomy, it is just one of many. If we followed your advice, you wouldn't be here to tell us how much you support murdering gays because you would be dead for sabbath breaking.

jewish philosopher said...

Actually, sodomy is prohibited to all humans.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Jews_and_Non-Jews/Legal_Issues/Noahide_Laws.shtml

In fact, gentiles are even prohibited from observing the sabbath.

http://www.traditiononline.org/news/article.cfm?id=104943

Alex said...

You wrote: "...because of my opinion that male to male anal intercourse should be punished by death."

Please list two or three well known rabbis of the past 100 years who have said the same thing. If you cannot do so, please explain why not.

jewish philosopher said...

"Please list two or three well known rabbis of the past 100 years who have said the same thing. If you cannot do so, please explain why not."

Why would a rabbi bother repeating a verse which we read each year in the Torah scroll,

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

Alex said...

Nice maneuver, but not the best logic. Why would Rabbi Caro or the Rambam bother repeat a law that we read each year in the Torah scroll?
Why would a rabbi even give a sermon? -- after all, the folks can read it in the Torah.

There are lots of conditions that have to apply before following through with a death penalty. The Torah isn't so clear about these conditions, but the rabbis are. Thus, you would expect to find rabbis nowadays who explicate these conditions. If you can't find any such rabbis, why not?

Can you at least find one one who will say, "I believe in executing those engaged in gay sex in theory, but not in practice"?

If you can't, then you're really going out on your own.

jewish philosopher said...

And your point is exactly what? That most Orthodox rabbis condone and/or approve legalization of sodomy and I'm a dissident on this issue? I don't think so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_and_gay_topics_and_Judaism#Orthodox_Jewish_views

Alex said...

You twisted this conversation terribly. I never mentioned condoning sodomy. I never mentioned legalizing sodomy. We were talking about the execution of such people.

The lengths you go through just to avoid answering a simple question. Sheesh

jewish philosopher said...

Do you realize that there is no international law requiring me to answer any anonymous internet user's silly questions? Sheesh

Alex said...

Oh, of course not. But then you shouldn't spend so much time not answering it.

And it was more of a declaration than a question. It was a declaration that you have no one (well, not two, anyway) in the Orthodox rabbinate to back you up, not one who has written that sodomites should be executed.

jewish philosopher said...

So? Did I claim any "backup"?

Alex said...

Holy cow!
Of course you didn't claim backup!
I made the charge that you had no backup. Don't you remember?

And by saying that sodomites nowadays should be executed means that you know the Torah more than all the Torah giants of the generation.

I'll start calling you a gadol.

jewish philosopher said...

Your question seems to imply that if rabbis do not republish a Biblical or Talmudic ruling every century it expires. Of course, that's not the case. I cite sources for, I think, everything I write and some of those sources may be centuries old.

Alex said...

My question implies nothing of the sort! (The fact we don't have a Sanhedrin is a big factor, one I think you failed to take into account.)

jewish philosopher said...

So we agree that Orthodox Judaism strictly condemns male to male anal intercourse and that the Bible and Talmud define it as a death penalty.

Alex said...

I'd agree only if Orthodox Judaism also agrees that people should get whipped for doing a whole slew of negative commandments. The fact is that we don't (except for the lone exception, you) hold that people are supposed to get punished, practically speaking, nowadays, in the same way as done in ancient times.

jewish philosopher said...

The noahide laws should be enforced by gentile governments today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

Alex said...

And that link says:
"Some modern views hold that penalties are a detail of the Noahide Laws and that Noahides themselves must determine the details of their own laws for themselves. "

I repeat, if you cannot print one modern day orthodox rabbi who'll endorse your punishment idea, then you're out there all by yourself. Or, you're braver than every last one of them.

jewish philosopher said...

I've got Maimonides Mishnah Torah Hilchos Melachim 9:14

וכיצד מצווין הן על הדינין חייבין להושיב דיינין ושופטים בכל פלך ופלך לדון בשש מצות אלו ולהזהיר את העם ובן נח שעבר על אחת משבע מצות אלו יהרג בסייף ומפני זה נתחייבו כל בעלי שכם הריגה שהרי שכם גזל והם ראו וידעו ולא דנוהו ובן נח נהרג בעד אחד ובדיין אחד בלא התראה ועל פי קרובין אבל לא בעדות אשה ולא תדון אשה לה

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/7758/jewish/Perek-9.htm

This is simply saying exactly what I am saying:

I believe that the United States government should amend the Constitution to make male to male anal intercourse a capital crime.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/04/beheading-orthodox-jewish-punishment.html

And again, Talmudic laws do not automatically expire if rabbis do not proclaimed them again every century. Maimonides ruling above remains on the books.

Anonymous said...

If I may respond.

I am a Christian, not a Jew, so I do not believe the Mosaic Covenant to still be in effect, and I think its application to any country outside mordern day Israel is not defensible using the Bible, even if there are good reasons for it.

That being said, I support its criminalization, and those who have attempted to refute what you say fail miserably.