Thursday, December 30, 2010

Paradoxes



Today Moshe Katzav, ex-president of Israel and a product of the secular Zionist indoctrination of religious immigrants, was convicted of rape.

No Orthodox Jew has ever been convicted of forcible rape.

However the most hated group in Israeli society is the ultra-orthodox.

This seems rather odd. One would think that the ultra-orthodox should be the most admired.

On the other hand Russian President Vladimir Putin has been quoted as saying, "He [Katzav] really surprised us... turned out to be quite a mighty man. He raped 10 women. I never expected it from him. He surprised all of us. We all envy him."

Different cultures have different values. Perhaps the ultra-orthodox are not "manly" enough for some people's taste. Judaism teaches "who is strong one who conquers his desires". Maybe we're not real men.

33 comments:

Garnel Ironheart said...

Your assertion is incorrect.
Moshe Katzav is an observant Jew. He's not Chareidi but he is shomer mitzvos.

jewish philosopher said...

I don't believe he's orthodox.

"As a traditional Israeli he also will promote better relations between religious and secular Israelis."

http://www.jewishpost.com/archives/news/moshe-katzav-a-profile-of-israels-new-president.html

This incident is mind boggling. Judaism demands the strictest chastity. Yet the only head of state in history, that I can think of, to be convicted of rape, is Israel - the so called Jewish state. Not sexual harassment, not whore mongering, real honest to goodness rape.

This is the ultimate fruit of Ben-Gurion's program to assimilate religious immigrants into Israeli society. He did a great job, according to Putin. 

Anonymous said...

Before making your weekly trip to deliver glatt kosher meals to Rabbi Baruch Lebovits, you should print and read this long list of Orthodox Jewish men who forcibly raped:

http://100777.com/node/463

jewish philosopher said...

Where's the forcible rape conviction?

jewish philosopher said...

Just for comparisons sake, in 1994 there were 34,000 rapist in prison in the US.

http://www.blackexile.net/sexualassault.pdf

Proportionally, about 70 should have been orthodox Jews. Actually, there are none. Ever. Anywhere.

NC said...

This post is so full of non-sequiturs and logical fallacies I don't even know where to begin. Your ability to draw false conclusions is truly astounding.

Perhaps you would like to conclude that because Bill Clinton went to a Catholic school, this shows Catholics encourage getting blow jobs and then committing perjury about it.

All I can say is that if this represents the level of your reasoning ability I can understand why you can't understand evolution.

NC said...

Clinton went to catholic school.

jewish philosopher said...

So you think that had Katzav gone to yeshiva, as his grandfathers did and as his father I'm guessing would have preferred, he would have raped anyway? The decision of the atheist socialist Israeli government of the 1950s to "normalize" religious immigrants is entirely irrelevant to this debacle?

Sorry, I don't think so.

Clinton attended catholic school only for grades 2 and 3; as far as I know Katzav's education was completely secular.

Nc said...

It's about people in positions of authority abusing power. Yeshiva has nothing to do with it. Abuse of power goes back to biblical times. Your what if scenario doesn't prove anything.

Besides, your using the "no true scotsman" fallacy as well.

jewish philosopher said...

Actually, I don't think powerful men are especially prone to rape (except maybe Putin). Women want them, or at least they can afford to pay.

I don't get the Scotsman thing. I'm not saying no true Orthodox would rape. I'm saying Orthodox don't rape.

onionsoupmix said...

It sounds like you are either deliberately playing dense or really unaware of what rape means.

Pleading to sodomy, for example, is admitting to rape. Sexual abuse is often a way to refer to rape. See ex. Israel Weingarter. Or just see google.

Nc said...

It think that you conveniently forgot that it was the Shas party who made him president. Wow! Sefardi heredim encourage rape!
I am just echoing back your logic.

Yeshivish said...

I personally have a family relative that deals with these issues in the Orthodox world. Most of the time plea deals are made. Usually convictions are a result of an inability to afford a good lawyer. Trust me though, these things happen constantly.

jewish philosopher said...

"really unaware of what rape means"

rape Law Definition:
In common law, the felony of a man having illegal sexual intercourse with a woman other than his wife, by force or with threat of violence and against her will; unlawful sexual act with an unwilling other, and usually involving threat of violence.

http://law.yourdictionary.com/rape

"Pleading to sodomy, for example, is admitting to rape."

Wrong.

sodomy Law Definition
Anal or oral copulation between two persons, especially when they are of the same sex; oral or anal copulation between a human and a non-human.

http://law.yourdictionary.com/sodomy

Weingarten was convicted of sexual molestation, not rape.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20619081/Memo-and-Order-to-Deny-Retrial-for-Israel-Winegarten

"Sefardi heredim encourage rape!"

Nice try, however Katzav was elected president in 2000 and was not accused of rape until 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Katsav#Presidency

"Trust me though, these things happen constantly."

The same old false claim made by all anti-Semites.

Martin Luther wrote in the “The Jews and Their Lies” chapter XII: “They deny just as brazenly as they lie. And wherever they can secretly curse, poison, or harm us Christians they do so without any qualms of conscience. If they are caught in the act or charged with something, they are bold enough to deny it impudently, even to the point of death, since they do not regard us worthy of being told the truth. In fact, these holy children of God consider any harm they can wish or inflict on us as a great service to God. Indeed, if they had the power to do to us what we are able to do to them, not one of us would live for an hour. But since they lack the power to do this publicly, they remain our daily murderers and bloodthirsty foes in their hearts. Their prayers and curses furnish evidence of that, as do the many stories which relate their torturing of children and all sorts of crimes for which they have often been burned at the stake or banished. Therefore I firmly believe that they say and practice far worse things secretly than the histories and others record about them, meanwhile relying on their denials and on their money.

Emphasis mine.

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

NC said...

"Nice try, however Katzav was elected president in 2000 and was not accused of rape until 2006."

Yes. And he went to school in the 1950s and raped in 2006. But you claim that these two factors are casually related.

Do I need to remind you of a basic principle of logic, that one thing that follows another does not imply causation?

jewish philosopher said...

The rapes were actually in 1998.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/world/middleeast/31katsav.html

Determining causation is always difficult. Because one cannot rewind history and replay events after making small controlled changes, causation can only be inferred, never exactly known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation#Determining_causation

However, I think it's obvious that a child's education is hugely influential in his later development.

NC said...

"However, I think it's obvious that a child's education is hugely influential in his later development."

No doubt. You were raised a Christian and converted to Judaism. Your Christian upbringing must have been the cause.

jewish philosopher said...

"We sometimes obey orders from one another, but also we sometimes don't. Nevertheless, it is a telling fact that, the world over, the vast majority of children follow the religion of their parents rather than any of the other available religions."

Richard Dawkins Viruses of the Mind (1993)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins#Viruses_of_the_Mind_.281993.29

I believe that Mr Katzav was, very deliberately, infected with a deadly spiritual virus by socialist atheist Zionists who controlled his life when he was a child.

Allegedly, Ben-Gurion once said “We will know we have become a normal country when Jewish thieves and Jewish prostitutes conduct their business in Hebrew.”

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/41541/the-narrowing-of-the-israeli-mindset/

As Borat would say "Great Success!" We now have an ex-Israeli president who a thug like Putin is proud of.

Anonymous said...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/popular-rabbi-in-north-arrested-for-allegedly-molesting-minors-1.334536

jewish philosopher said...

I'm not claiming every orthodox Jew is completely chaste. I never even claimed I am.

I am saying that on the average Orthodox Jews are far more chaste, sober, peaceful and kind than Americans in general. 

I am aware of only two orthodox Jews ever convicted of murder - Yigal Amir, Rabin's assassin and one guy in Cleveland, Ohio who killed a man in a family dispute 25 years ago. And no orthodox Jew has ever been convicted of forcible rape to my knowledge.

Imagine a city the size of Houston, Texas which has had two murders in the past century, never had a recorded rape, has maybe 20 registered sex offenders and perhaps a hundred drug addicts and alcoholics - maybe 1 DUI every few years.

The real Houston had 86 murders in 2009 alone.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6794405.html

Anonymous said...

So you don't consider convicted child molesters like Rabbi Lanner, Kolko or Lebovitz to be guilty of rape?

That's quite the intellectual stretch. Some would consider it outright dishonest.

JRKmommy said...

As a lawyer, I am really curious as to your source of information for the "no Orthodox Jewish rapists" statistic. To the best of my knowledge, neither the United States nor Canada keep any official statistics on the religion of those convicted.

I'm also wondering if your research included all sexual offenses. I couldn't help but notice that the definition of "rape" that you cited was considerably outdated. For example, Canada replaced the offense of "rape" with "sexual assault" in 1983, and most western jurisdictions have now passed laws making marital rape illegal.

jewish philosopher said...

I'm pretty sure I would know about an orthodox rapist. There dozens of websites around obsessed with orthodox sex crimes, real or imagined. "rabbi convicted of rape" would be all over the web.

JRKmommy said...

So your absolute "no Orthodox rapist, anywhere, ever" declaration is simply based solely on the fact that you don't happen to know of any?

jewish philosopher said...

Anybody out there is welcome to prove me wrong.

NC said...

For example here:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2279753,00.html

jewish philosopher said...

The story sounds fishy. Why is the perpetrator's name unmentioned?

jewish philosopher said...

Note that Ha'aretz tends to be left wing, perhaps very leftist.

jewish philosopher said...

"So you don't consider convicted child molesters like Rabbi Lanner, Kolko or Lebovitz to be guilty of rape?"

Did the court say they were?

NC said...

Its public record, you can find the name yourself if you're really interested. Its not haaretz, it yediot (which admittedly is also left leaning, but I don't think they fabricate court rulings)

NC said...

"Oh really? Just try being a sex predator in the ultra-orthodox communities. I doubt you'll survive more than a few weeks."

Have you tried?

Anyway I brought you information from reputable news sources and you discount them. So you are not interested in hearing the truth.

jewish philosopher said...

"Its public record, you can find the name yourself if you're really interested."

How? I don't even have a name.

"Its not haaretz, it yediot (which admittedly is also left leaning, but I don't think they fabricate court rulings)"

I do. What kind of newspaper prints a story that for example "a 24 year old catholic priest was convicted of rape" with all the details, except the guy's name.

"Have you tried?"

I once had a woman try to get an order of protection against me because she found out that I was emailing her 21 year old daughter. The daughter and I were friends, she herself and even my wife had no problem with it, but the mother didn't like it. Now if I actually grabbed some 12 year old, what do think would happen. The orthodox, and I mean very orthodox, people I know have no problem dialing 911.

I'm telling you, try something with some allegedly "easily abused" orthodox kids. You will be hit with a shit storm you won't believe.



Tuesday, January 04, 2011 4:37:00 AM

Anonymous said...

I understnad that Kolko pleaded to a lesser crime and avoided jail time. I recl lreading that noone accused him of rape. The worst thing he was accused of was groping. Same thing with Lanner.
I don't mean to excuse whatever they did, jsut to provide some facts.


Please correct me if I'm wrong.