Tuesday, November 09, 2010

Stop the Hatred. All of It.



[why do we keep persecuting them?]

Lately, I have received a number of comments from people accusing me of hatred, mass murder, Fascism, etc because of my condemnation of homosexuality. I was even expelled from nursing school thanks to having expressed my opinion about this. I guess homosexuals believe I don't deserve to live.

So, having had a little time to think, I agree. People should be free to do whatever they like, provided that they don't hurt anyone else. Whatever works. Whatever turns you on.

However, to my horror, I now see that many of my new gay and atheist friends are guilty of the SAME EXACT SIN which I committed!!

Hatred!

Bigotry!

I'm talking about adults who love children. I mean really love children.

They include about 5% of the population, roughly the same as gays.

And they are hated. Pursued. Imprisoned. Branded for life. Like gays were back in the dark ages before Stonewall. (I walked through the village last week believe it or not, crying bitter tears of repentance.)

When will we have a Childlovers' Stonewall? How long will these precious men suffer horrible persecution because of meaningless superstition and bigotry? Many commit suicide. These men are an innocent, beautiful sexual minority. There is nothing wrong with them and they can't change how God made them.

We have major works of literature portraying childlovers, for example Lolita and also the Dutch movie For a Lost Soldier.

Psychiatrists have proven that pedophilia is not an illness. There is no reason why older men cannot engage in respectful, loving, safe relationships with little boys and girls. Even marriage should not be discouraged. Whatever works.

I hope we will soon see churches and temples for childlovers where adults and their little friends can worship openly together. Childlovers in the military could give out candy and toys to children in other countries and spread more democratic, American love.

To the pedophile haters out there, I can only beg you - don't make the mistake I did of trying to impose your beliefs and fears on others. Let freedom reign! Peace! Rainbows! And if you dare disagree with me I'll hunt you down and make sure you end up homeless, or better, dead because you don't deserve to live you scum.

111 comments:

JRKmommy said...

Um, you didn't just condemn homosexuality. You advocated killing men who had anal sex. What did you expect? If someone advocated the death penalty for those caught practicing Judaism, we'd rightly label that as hatred and advocating mass murder and Nazi-like.

The difference with pedophilia is simple: there is a victim who is being harmed.

Anonymous said...

Seriously, there is something deeply wrong with you. I pray you do indeed do teshuva and learn a bit before its too late for you. You've already gotten a small taste of the consequences for your actions. If you're not careful, everything could come unraveled before your eyes. Speak to your Rebbe, learn Chofetz Chayim, consider the love you have for your children, and try to conceive the pain you are causing other people's sons and daughters. Imagine someone comparing your disabled son to a death row inmate (his lifespan is limited and all he does is take up others' time and resources) or an unemployed, drug addicted welfare case (leeching off of society), G-d forbid. I'll be davening for you and your family. May your eyes be opened and your heart softened as we move from bitter cheshvan to the re-dedication of kislev.

Anonymous said...

I'm a teacher.

And careful with that kind of threat; it could get you arrested.

I wish you only the best. Farewell.

jewish philosopher said...

JRKmommy, there is no scientific difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. I suggest you educate yourself.

https://www.ipce.info/

Regarding victims, there are plenty of innocent victims of homosexuality, as I explained here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/10/straight-rights.html

But that doesn't excuse punishing a beautiful sexual minority, does it? Clearly, you have a lot more living to do. Clearly you do not deserve to be breathing the same air pedophiles do and Clearly you are not a good person.

Did you know that the Nazis shot pedophiles too, just like Jews? (That's actually true; read "Commandant of Auschwitz : The Autobiography of Rudolf Hoess".)

The shameful way we persecute known childlovers in this country is a torture worse than death. In fact, many die in prison or kill themselves.

"consider the love you have for your children, and try to conceive the pain you are causing other people's sons and daughters"

What do you know about love for children? Childlove hater. What are you going to do if you your son tells you "I'm attracted to children"? Call the police? Or love him unconditionally? I hope you make the right choice.

Tell me where you live and who you are so I can phone in a bomb threat or something in your name to the local shopping mall.

Stupid bigots.

jewish philosopher said...

"And careful with that kind of threat; it could get you arrested."

Excuse me, however it didn't get Meghan E Coughlan and her henchmen arrested, did it?

http://bocesjustice.blogspot.com/

In this country the police only protect perverts, didn't you know that by now?

So tell me where you're teaching so I can call the school and tell them you have a gun are planning to shoot everyone. Childlover hater. Fascist.

Anonymous said...

I intended to leave after reading your reply, but seeing it raised one final question: why are you so extremely hostile? I am so sorry for whatever terrible thing happened in your life that made you such an angry and bitter man. Such anger serves no one but the Satan.

jewish philosopher said...

What hatred, excuse me? I have just repented. I have just discovered love for all our beautiful sexual minorities. You're the hater.

Oh, but wait, maybe you mean we can only love the people the New York Times tells us we should love? Maybe that's it? This is complicated.

Anonymous said...

I said nothing regarding hatred; only anger and hostility. Remember, the first sin of man began with the misquoting of Hashem. Precision, my good sir. I am sorry for your pain.

jewish philosopher said...

I am trying to organize a Childlovers Pride Parade on Fifth Ave next summer. So can I count on your support?

Remember, we are basing our morality on science, not bigotry and predjudice. And science, real peer reviewed research, does not find any difference between gays and childlovers. (That's actually true; no sarcasm.)

jewish philosopher said...

What I am trying to saying is that scientifically and psychologically there is no difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. Both groups are about equally large, too. The only reason why homosexuals are glamorized and pedophiles demonized in the United States today is purely cultural. Therefore, when I am attacked in the most extreme and even illegal ways for condemning homosexuals, by the same people who easily condemn pedophiles, this is pure hypocracy. Make up your mind. If you want to base your morality on psychiatry, accept pedophilia. If you want to base it on the Torah, condemn homosexuality.

jewish philosopher said...

More links regarding pedophilia and psychiatry.

http://www.narth.com/docs/debate2.html

http://www.narth.com/docs/whatapa.html

JRKmommy said...

The issue isn't the cause of the sexual preference. It is the harm caused to the other party which justifies legal action.

There is ample evidence of the extreme harm suffered by children who are sexually abused by adults.

It does not compare in any way, shape or form to the alleged harm that you described in your other post, for the following reasons:

1. Knowingly having sexual relations while infected with HIV and deliberately hiding one's HIV status is already a criminal offence.

2. Mentally competent adults who consent to sexual relations are in a position to assess risk and take appropriate precautions.

3. The vast majority of women worldwide who have been infected by HIV got it from men who contracted it through heterosexual contact.

4. Heterosexual sex is dangerous to women in other ways as well. Where is your concern for the 253,000 women per year worldwide who die of cervical cancer?

5. Men who are afraid of revealing themselves as homosexuals will often have relationships with women and even get married. Subsequent homosexual encounters are likely to be anonymous, and therefore more risky. At the same time, condoms are unlikely to be used with the wife. Men who are out of the closet are much less likely to be with women at all, and if they are bi-sexual are more likely to be candid about their sexual history and activity.

NoLiveGod said...

Let me see if I have this correct:

You are arguing that civil equality for same-sex couples is the same thing as legitimizing sexual assault by adults against minors.

Do I have this correct? Are you saying that if U.S. law recognizes same-sex unions as having equal status to opposite-sex unions then that same law must also recognize the right of adults to sexually assault minors?

Please be clear. Yes or no. Do I have your argument correct or not?

Rambam said...

If you want to base your morality on the Torah, applaud pedophilia.

I agree JP, great point.

Rambam said...

While were at it, rape is also permitted.

jewish philosopher said...

I'm sorry very Mommy, however if you consult the scientific literature rather than daytime talk shows you will see that homosexuality and pedophilia are both merely minority sexual orientations which may be harmful or which may be harmless. There is no scientific reason to make a distinction.

Let me ask you a question. How will feel if your 35 year old son comes home one day and admits to you that he is a childlover? Statistically, that's as likely as his being gay. Further more, he introduces you to his fiancé, Tim who is a beautiful little boy of six happily licking a lollipop and holding your son's hand. Will you be loving and non-judgmental enough to accept your son unconditionally and welcome his little partner into your family? Or will you react with narrow minded bigotry and hate?

jewish philosopher said...

NLG and Rambam, please stop your pedophobic blather or get off my blog. In fact get off my planet, you Nazis.

Usually, it's people like you who are so vehemently anti- childlove who are really secret pedophiles.

So tell me the truth, I won't tell. Who is your little friend? How long have you known each other? Is it really serious yet? I want all the juicy details.

Rambam said...

Why are you so hostile? I am agreeing with you. You are right. If you base your morality on the Torah then pedophilia is much more acceptable than homosexuality.

My view that pedophilia is distasteful doesn't come from on high. It's subjective. Your right.

I am not sure why you are calling me a pedophile though. I subjectively reject coercion (kids can't give informed consent) and also think the evidence that pedophilia harms children is strong. I am not sure on what grounds you are denying that pedophilia isn't harmful. Nevertheless, you are the one whose moral system permits pedophilia, not me.

jewish philosopher said...

First of all, you're ignorant. Read the Rind paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rind_et_al._controversy

Some of the authors' more controversial conclusions were that child sexual abuse does not necessarily cause intense, pervasive harm to the child; that the reason the current view of child sexual abuse was not substantiated by their empirical scrutiny was because the construct of CSA was questionably valid; and that the psychological damage caused by the abusive encounters depends on whether the encounter was consensual or not.

And then there's that consent business, another bit of pedophobe nonsense.

http://www.narth.com/docs/debate2.html

Is lack of "consent" a valid reason to call pedophilia harmful? No, Dr. Ng notes, "the seemingly righteous and humanitarian debate on child self-determination" is nothing more than "another game adults play to impose their own values on children."

After all, Ng notes, "How often do the adults [in the West] try to ascertain 'valid consent' from their children before getting them to do most things?" For example, have parents "sought valid 'consent' from their children before baptizing them soon after birth?"

I can't believe you Rambam. You sound just like some homophobe like I used to be, muttering about fatal diseases and such. Sure, some kids might get hurt by pedophiles, just like some gays may get aids and some housewives may get beaten. So?

Answer this. What if your son comes out of the closet and courageously, out and proud, tells you he is a childlover and this little boy is his life partner. Are you going to have a problem? If so, you don't deserve to breathe the same air I do. Hater.

NoLiveGod said...

Looks like I have your argument correct, then.

Wow. You are the stupidest and meanest person I've ever come across. The very likeness of the imaginary god you think everyone should worship and obey.

Congrats. You've become your god.

jewish philosopher said...

NLG, just look at the science. Homosexuality and pedophilia are completely equivalent. If you accept one you there is no reason to reject the other. Both are about equally prevalent too.

So what's your problem? Why suddenly so judgmental? Do you have some secrets you are afraid to face?

NoLiveGod said...

"Homosexuality and pedophilia are completely equivalent."

Homosexuality: Consenting adults.

Pedophilia: A psychiatric disorder in adults.

Yeah, completely equivalent.

jewish philosopher said...

Pedophilia is a disorder? Excuse me? Now that's totally a fallacy. The same doctor who discovered that homosexuality is normal has now discovered the same thing for pedophilia.

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/pedophilia.htm

I can't believe the hatred I'm hearing here and the ignorance!

Answer this. What if your son comes out of the closet and courageously, out and proud, tells you he is a childlover and this little boy is his life partner. Are you going to have a problem? If so, you don't deserve to breathe the same air I do. Hater.

NC said...

You inability to make moral distinctions is astounding (or you are being dishonest).

Homosexuality is victimless (at least as victimless as heterosexual relations between consenting adults, when not in a situation of power inbalance).

Pedophilia--which by definition includes acting on the urge--involves a willing or unwilling victim.

jewish philosopher said...

NC, that may be what Oprah says, but it's not science. Read the Rind paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rind_et_al._controversy

Some of the authors' more controversial conclusions were that child sexual abuse does not necessarily cause intense, pervasive harm to the child; that the reason the current view of child sexual abuse was not substantiated by their empirical scrutiny was because the construct of CSA was questionably valid; and that the psychological damage caused by the abusive encounters depends on whether the encounter was consensual or not.

And then there's that consent business, another bit of pedophobe nonsense.

http://www.narth.com/docs/debate2.html

Is lack of "consent" a valid reason to call pedophilia harmful? No, Dr. Ng notes, "the seemingly righteous and humanitarian debate on child self-determination" is nothing more than "another game adults play to impose their own values on children."

After all, Ng notes, "How often do the adults [in the West] try to ascertain 'valid consent' from their children before getting them to do most things?" For example, have parents "sought valid 'consent' from their children before baptizing them soon after birth?"

Anonymous said...

"he introduces you to his fiancé, Tim who is a beautiful little boy of six happily licking a lollipop"

"tells you he is a childlover and this little boy is his life partner"

Dude, you really have some intense fixation on all things gay. Being that between 70-85% of all child molestation victims are female, why not suggest a straight version of the above stories? Is it because the Torah permits the straight version? Do you like little girls and are trying to distance yourself? Or maybe you just REALLY like boys.

Anonymous said...

"For example, have parents "sought valid 'consent' from their children before baptizing them soon after birth?""

Which is why it's immoral to indoctrinate a child into a religion.

Anonymous said...

FYI, your data is a bit off numbers wise:

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 57% of men who had sex with another man did not consider themselves to be homosexual or bisexual. A recent random survey of 4,193 men in New York City revealed that while 91.3% claimed they were straight, 9.3% of those “straight” respondents had sex only with other men in the previous year, while another 0.8% reported having sex with both men and women. When the authors included gays and bisexuals, they noted that among men who have sex with men, 73% identified as straight. Another representative survey found that more than 20% of all men have had a homosexual experience.

JRKmommy said...

Again, the mechanism of the orientation is not the issue.

The Talmud (Shabbat 156a) talks about how the same instinct can lead a person to a butcher, a circumciser, a surgeon or a murderer. Obviously, the difference is the harmful outcome of the latter.

[The overwhelming body of evidence, not to mention my personal and professional experience, confirms the harm of childhood sexual abuse. I know that your post is sarcastic, but if you are seriously going to equate a consensual adult relationship with the abusive exploitation of children, you've got a problem.]

Yeshivish said...

I am an observant Jew who cringes, and becomes mortified every time I read this blog.

Anonymous said...

http://www.nambla.org/

I've taken the liberty of signing you up for their mailing letter since you're such a big supporter. Sorry I couldn't afford a full subscription or membership; I'm sure someone else would be happy to give that gift to you. Thanks for publishing your address! :)

Rambam said...

"I can't believe you Rambam. You sound just like some homophobe like I used to be, muttering about fatal diseases and such. Sure, some kids might get hurt by pedophiles, just like some gays may get aids and some housewives may get beaten. So?"

Nope, I don't sound like you at all. I openly admit that I have no objective moral code and cannot reason from an "is" to an "ought". I am a nihilist. I decry pedophilia for no good reason at all, just personal distaste.

You find pedophilia and rape acceptable and homosexuality unacceptable because your morality is Torah-based.

We are in full agreement. You support rape and pedophilia and I do not. Am I missing something?

I don't have a son.

jewish philosopher said...

About 1/3 of pedophiles seem to attracted to boys, as far as I can tell.

http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/one-a.php

But you're right, instead of a 6 year old Tim, your son's fiancé could just as well be a 6 year old Mary. Whatever works.

And Mommy, childlove has no more to do with child abuse than marriage has to do with spousal abuse. Research has proven it. And don't forget: 50 years ago homosexuals were branded as sick, jailed, drugged, etc.

So again, if we are going to vehemently and violently embrace homosexuals, then exactly the same logic should be used to embrace pedophiles.

If you want to curse and rant and rave about Judaism being homophobic, fine. But be consistant. Are you any less bigoted and hateful? I don't think so.

jewish philosopher said...

Look at this hatred for childlovers:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40112145/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/

That's why they cause harm; they are forced into the closet so deeply that they don't know how to be good pedophiles.

And then everyone bashes rabbis for being anti- gay. It's just an arbitrary double standard.

A Neighbor said...

Have you no compassion for your children that your entire community now calls you the village idiot? The meshugganer who is laughed at in shul and derided as a certified crackpot who gets himself expelled from nursing school.
I know for a fact that they're always embarrased about they're nutty father when they hear about your crazy rantings. If you don't have any respect for yourself, at least have some compassion for your family.
You are obsessed. Get Help !

jewish philosopher said...

Wow, a fan in my own neighborhood. And a support of gay rights apparently. What's your name honored neighbor?

jewish philosopher said...

I recently watched the movie "Trembling Before G-d".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trembling_Before_G-d

Among other things, the movie seems to be a biting critique of the ultra-Orthodox attitude toward homosexuality.

However try this experiment. Watch the movie and each time the word "homosexual" is used mentally substitute "pedophile", each time "gay" substitute "childlover". Does the movie sound a little different? Remember both sexual orientations are equally prevalent, both equally harmful or harmless, most of the same arguments pro and con can be used for both. American culture today has simply chosen to demonize one and glamorize the other, however I see no reason to automatically adopt everything in American culture.

Anonymous said...

"And if you dare disagree with me I'll hunt you down and make sure you end up homeless, or better, dead because you don't deserve to live you scum."

Is this a threat towards your ex classmates? Or Simply a ironic statement stating the ridiculousness that you feel about how your suspension was handled? I've seen in your previous comments how you tell your ex classmates to hang themselves with rainbow flags... clearly you wish to do them harm. I'd be careful with these kind of threats JP.

jewish philosopher said...

How am I supposed to threaten anonymous commentators about whom I literally know nothing except that they speak English and have access to the Internet? For all I know they are sitting in the library of a psychiatric ward in Thailand.

Anonymous said...

? You've explicitly stated that you think your ex class mates and some of the boces' staff should hang themselves with their rainbow colored flags. That along with your hostile attitude in general can only bring one to question- I'm simply asking you if the statement above, that you have written yourself, pertains to your ex classmates as well, do you wish to do them harm? Instead of answering the question, you are rambling. Please simply answer.

Anonymous said...

? You've explicitly stated that you think your ex class mates and some of the boces' staff should hang themselves with their rainbow colored flags. That along with your hostile attitude in general can only bring one to question- I'm simply asking you if the statement above, that you have written yourself, pertains to your ex classmates as well, do you wish to do them harm? Instead of answering the question, you are rambling. Please simply answer.

Anonymous2 said...

But you have avoided the actual question that Anonymous has asked. You clearly have very hostile feelings towards these people ,or as your describe them ~"Henchmen", otherwise you would not have told them to do such terrible things to themselves.

jewish philosopher said...

I don't see where you're seeing any threats here, except possible directed at unknown people whom I have no way of locating.

About Coughlin and Fromson and their wonderful associates - who wouldn't love people who hate and persecute observant Jews? Delicious.

anonymous2 said...

You're obsessed with this Coughlin and Fromson, judging by your previous comments and blogs. I would give it a rest, JP. This manic obsessive behavior is similar to that of a sociopath... I'd check yourself into a mental health facility and fast before you do something reckless. You need a team of people who will help you to understand these feelings of hatred and hostility. I'm sure there are people out there who have gone through what you have and gotten the help they needed. Message boards may even help, but you need something to help you. Perhaps you should discuss these feelings of hatred with your rabbi, he may have some suggestions on psychologists or psychiatrists that you can start with because this type of behavior isn't normal. It's fanatical and quite frankly- a little scary.

Best of luck.

jewish philosopher said...

You're absolutely right. Most people I know would be delighted by being slandered and having their civil rights violated. What was I thinking, anonymous Internet scumbag? Thank you!

JRKmommy said...

Given your past difficulties, you may want to think twice about making potentially libelous statements about specific individuals.

You know the names of two people who objected to your blog post. That's it. You don't have any basis to say that they persecute Orthodox Jews.

To the best of my knowledge, you are the only Orthodox Jew pushing for the United States to adopt the death penalty for male-to-male anal sex. If I am wrong and your position is supported by other Orthodox rabbis, please provide their names.

jewish philosopher said...

First of all the Torah states

Lev.20,13    And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

By definition, orthodox rabbis accept the Torah.

In addition, check this out

http://www.vosizneias.com/61110/2010/07/29/jerusalem-100s-of-anti-gay-protestors-sick-perverts-get-out-of-jerusalem/

jewish philosopher said...

Regarding Gentiles:

Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, sodomy, and bestiality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

A Noachide Court only requires one judge to pass judgement. Even in the case of a capital offense. A Noachide Court can be made up of Noachides, Jews or both. However, a woman cannot serve as a judge as is the case of Jewish Judges.Noachides are obligated to set up courts within every major town.The purpose of these courts is to enforce the other six Noachide Laws.

A Noachide may be found guilty (and if a capital case) be executed on the basis of a single eye witness.A Noachide does not have to be warned before hand as is the case with Jews. A Noachide can be convicted based on the testimony of a relative, although not on the testimony of a woman.

any violation of the Noachide Laws the Noachide is punished with death

http://noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=148&Itemid=38

jewish philosopher said...

Perhaps this will make myself a little clearer.

No one seriously anticipates that the United States government in its present form and make up will amend the Constitution to impose a death penality on sodomy. This is not an issue in modern American politics.

However all Orthodox Jews do pray fervently and frequently for the immediate arrival of the messianic era. During that era, Torah law will be universally imposed and indeed sodomy will be ruled a capital crime and offenders will be executed according to all the details of Talmudic due process.

In this sense, every Orthodox Jew and rabbi is "pushing for the United States to adopt the death penalty for male-to-male anal sex."

Anonymous said...

So if "all Orthodox Jews" want an era where Torah law is "universally imposed", where does that leave people who are not Orthodox Jews? It doesn't seem very tolerant. Hmm.. double standard?

Anonymous said...

Your comment 11/12 at 2:50 is the most articulate thing you have posted on the subject. This statement should have been your first and last dealing with homosexuality. Everything else you have said and every argument against it is worthless in the face of this. Remove all your previous posts about homosexuality, post this final statement, close it to comments, and never revisit it again. You will be doing yourself, your intellectualism, your readership, and the entire Torah community a huge favor.

jewish philosopher said...

The truth of Torah will be so obvious in that era that no sane person will be able to deny it.

"the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" Isaiah 11:9

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1011.htm#9

jewish philosopher said...

"You will be doing yourself, your intellectualism, your readership, and the entire Torah community a huge favor."

This insanity of regarding sexual perverts as a racial minority who must be loved, accepted and glamorized must be denounced without stop.

NoLiveGod said...

"This insanity of regarding sexual perverts as a racial minority who must be loved, accepted and glamorized must be denounced without stop."

But is it insane to allow consenting adults to love each other with the same rights as other couples of consenting adults?

That's the question. It's a question of consenting adults and civil rights. You think homosexuals are treated as a "race." Fine, go ahead and think this if you like.

But the question is only about consenting adults and civil rights. Your position is that only some consenting adults deserve recognition and protection by law.

You don't need to love every couple. You don't need to like them. You don't need to approve of them. No one is asking you to to do any of this.

The question is only about consenting adults and civil rights. You think it's OK for some people to have rights denied to them when others get to enjoy them.

I'm not calling you a Nazi, a fascist, a communist or anything else, but has it ever occurred to you that targeting some groups (Jews, Japanese, Gypsies, Kurds, etc.) is exactly what made these evil regimes evil?

Why is it that you disapprove of persecution against Jews or against yourself, but you approve of death for other groups?

Anonymous said...

If you spent as much time in the Beis Medrash actually learning than writing this blog and answering questions, you would be the Godol Hador

jewish philosopher said...

What about the human rights of pedophiles?

The idea that children should not have sex is merely a contemporary western cultural belief.

Psychiatrist Emil Ng, M.D. of the University of Hong Kong says that in ancient Chinese history, children are described as "natural sexual beings," and romances are portrayed with children as young as ten years old in sexual relationships with each other, or with adults--and "sex play is viewed as beneficial to their healthy development."

http://www.narth.com/docs/debate2.html

Today it's fashionable in American society to glamorize homosexuals and demonize pedophiles. This is simply arbitrary, not rational, universal, scientific or self evident. I can't believe how some people feel free to self righteously attack me for disagreeing.

Anonymous said...

NLG:

Homosexuals have always enjoyed the same rights as heterosexuals. They have the same right as heterosexuals to marry a member of the opposite sex. They are advocating for a new right.

Anonymous said...

JP:

"You will be doing yourself, your intellectualism, your readership, and the entire Torah community a huge favor."

"This insanity of regarding sexual perverts as a racial minority who must be loved, accepted and glamorized must be denounced without stop."

Quite alright. You can post every few days, weeks, or months, your very well written statement:

"No one seriously anticipates that the United States government in its present form and make up will amend the Constitution to impose a death penality on sodomy. This is not an issue in modern American politics.

"However all Orthodox Jews do pray fervently and frequently for the immediate arrival of the messianic era. During that era, Torah law will be universally imposed and indeed sodomy will be ruled a capital crime and offenders will be executed according to all the details of Talmudic due process.

"In this sense, every Orthodox Jew and rabbi is 'pushing for the United States to adopt the death penalty for male-to-male anal sex.'"

This will serve to spread the word regularly and without harm. If this is indeed your opinion, your other posts distract so much from it that it has become a Chillul Hashem. At points, you have made statements which sound like you go to gay areas to find people to gay bash. Other points, you sound ready to build the gallows no matter whether moshiach has come. This doesn't obscure. It is clear and concise and no one can claim any ill intent. You never would have been removed from the BOCES school had this been all you posted.

NoLiveGod said...

"They are advocating for a new right."

Really? Please explain. Also, will this "new right" only be for some people or all people?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 7:05:

This same argument could be used in support of the persecution of many groups throughout history. A couple examples follow.

At one point, Jews were told that they were not allowed to practice their own religion, but they were indeed more than welcome to convert to Christianity. They had the same rights as everyone else: to follow the religious customs of Christianity. They were asking for special treatment under the law.

Until the 1967 decision of Loving v. Virginia, African Americans were not allowed the right to marry Whites. They had the same rights as everyone else: to marry someone of their own race. Those who wanted to marry someone of another race were advocating for a new right.

Gays who advocate for marriage equality (and not all gays do) are asking for the same rights as any other couple: to be able to marry the person they love no matter their gender, and thereby receive the same protections under the law afforded such unions. Married couples can share healthcare benefits, visit each other in the hospital, jointly adopt children, have legal mediation during divorce, and inherit assets after death, to name a few rights. Upon the death of an unmarried partner (heterosexual or homosexual), child custody becomes an unbearable experience for all family members, debts accrued under the deceased partner's name are inherited by parents or siblings rather than by their partner who potentially helped create those debts, and the living partner could potentially be evicted from their home if the title was in the other's name, making him/her a burden to family members and society. Gays are not advocating for new rights, but rather for equal protection under the law.

jewish philosopher said...

"At points, you have made statements which sound like you go to gay areas to find people to gay bash. Other points, you sound ready to build the gallows no matter whether moshiach has come."

Where? I think that I've always made my point of view perfectly clear.

"Until the 1967 decision of Loving v. Virginia, African Americans were not allowed the right to marry Whites. "

Again, the old scam - gays are a race. Not any more than alcoholics or pedophiles.

Anonymous said...

NLG:

A homomsexual man has the same right as a heterosexual to marry a womans. And a lesbian has the same right as a hetorsexual woman to marry a man.

And anonymous at 5:03, this fact means that homosexuals already enjoy equal protection under the law.

Anonymous said...

"Again, the old scam - gays are a race. Not any more than alcoholics or pedophiles."

And as for the Jews? We agree Jews aren't a race, yet we see similar types of discrimination.

jewish philosopher said...

Homosexuality is a minority sexual orientation, as is pedophilia for example. However no one seems upset that pedophiles are not allowed to marry their lovers.

And remember that the idea that children should not have sex is merely a contemporary western cultural belief.

Psychiatrist Emil Ng, M.D. of the University of Hong Kong says that in ancient Chinese history, children are described as "natural sexual beings," and romances are portrayed with children as young as ten years old in sexual relationships with each other, or with adults--and "sex play is viewed as beneficial to their healthy development."

http://www.narth.com/docs/debate2.html

Today it's fashionable in American society to glamorize homosexuals and demonize pedophiles. This is simply arbitrary, not rational, universal, scientific or self evident. I can't believe how some people feel free to self righteously attack me for disagreeing.

Anonymous said...

You're repeating yourself. You have not addressed my question. Where does the discrimination of Jews, also not a racial minority, fit into your philosophy? Jews have been denied the right to own land, to seek physicians, to attend schools, or to practice their singular religious observances (which were deemed disgusting and/or evil by ruling parties). Do you support such discrimination against Jews as you do gays?

jewish philosopher said...

Do you support such discrimination against Jews as you do pedophiles?

Anonymous said...

I do not support the discrimination of Jews, gays, Christians, Blacks, Muslims, Arabs, the disabled, women, or any other subjugated group whose subjugation is not due to the harm caused to others by their actions. But my answer is immaterial, as this is not my blog. So I'll ask again: Where does the discrimination of Jews, also not a racial minority, fit into your philosophy?

jewish philosopher said...

Let me ask you again: why not support Childlover's Liberation?

Remember both sexual orientations are equally prevalent, both equally harmful or harmless, most of the same arguments pro and con can be used for both.

NoLiveGod said...

"Let me ask you again: why not support Childlover's Liberation?"

Why do you not recognize a distinction between intimate relationships between consenting adults and relationships involving children?

jewish philosopher said...

I certainly do. Sodomy is a filthy, disease spreading habit which has been outlawed since ancient times by all monotheistic societies on pain of death.

Pedophilia is a modern western taboo.

No one had a problem when King Richard II at age 19 married a six year old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Isabela_richard2.jpg

NoLiveGod said...

Anything people do together is filthy and disease spreading. You single out sodomy because you're fascinated with it.

You have no argument against the fact we are talking about consenting adults in mature relationships. There is no legitimate reason to deny same-sex marriage rights.

Pedophilia is a modern taboo for good reason. Denying civil rights to full citizens has no good basis in reason.

You would not want to live in ancient times or in a society that actually lives according to biblical laws. Move to Afghanistan or Iran if you're so high on what ancient farmers think makes the good society for everyone else.

I won't miss you.

jewish philosopher said...

As I've pointed out again and again and again, numerous arguments pro and con can be made for either sexual minority and the fact that my conclusion is different than most Americans hardly makes me a Nazi war criminal.

And if you're so high on atheism, go to North Korea. I won't miss you.

NoLiveGod said...

I haven't called you a Nazi war criminal.

The discussion is not about "sexual minorities." This is your frame. It's not about race or minorities at all. It's about the civil rights of full citizens in a democratic society.

Your position is that one citizen should not be allowed to marry another citizen. Furthermore, you have voiced support for the idea putting some citizens to death for having relations with other citizens.

Those of us who find your opinions not only wrong but repugnant, outdated, immoral, tyrannical and generally stupid are completely justified to mock your views.

I would prefer to live in some of the Scandinavian countries, which are atheist and happier generally than the USA. More attractive, too.

jewish philosopher said...

"Your position is that one citizen should not be allowed to marry another citizen."

Yours too. Pedophiles and children are citizens.

Anyway, I have to say that it's refreshing to find so many people who are absolutely, dogmatically certain that their values, and theirs alone, are the correct ones.

By the way if you really like scandinavia, you better hurry up. The natives are reproducing well below replacement level and one day will probably be replaced by Muslims. Who believe in God. And prohibit sodomy.

NoLiveGod said...

"Pedophiles and children are citizens."

No, children are not citizens, not full citizens anyway. Children do not have the rights and obligations of full citizens. They are the responsibility of a parent or guardian until age 18.

"Anyway, I have to say that it's refreshing to find so many people who are absolutely, dogmatically certain that their values, and theirs alone, are the correct ones."

If you're talking about me, I don't see the basis from which you make this statement. I can only assume that you are waving your hands furiously to try and distract people from the utter evil of your argument.

"By the way if you really like scandinavia, you better hurry up. The natives are reproducing well below replacement level and one day will probably be replaced by Muslims. Who believe in God. And prohibit sodomy."

Ah, fear-mongering, the religious person's tool of choice. Fear the lawd, fear the lawd. The beginning of wisdom is to fear the lawd. Squawwwk!

NC said...

I haven't been by in a while and I see not much has changed. Still making the same wacky arguments, with futile attempts by commentators to rebut you. Getting kind of boring.

Anonymous said...

And you still have not answered to the question of Jews. Where does the discrimination of Jews, also not a racial minority, fit into your philosophy?

Anonymous said...

Still Curious:
Mr. Stein I would
really like to know how you would
respond if little Shimshon or
little Avigayil came to you and
told you they were gay? Would you
advocate for their death?
Encourage them to commit suicide
as another rabbi has? (see "cost
of idly standing by" Jewish Week,
October 12, 2010) People like you are the cause of so many problems in this world that it makes me angry that you have not yet been incarcerated. But then I remember to be dan lchaf schus and to have rachmanus on someone with such a huge struggle as you do. It is ok to be gay. One can still live a fulfilling life and be out of the closet. There are many frum gay jews who are in happy and healthy
relationships and still do not have intercourse with men. Help is out there if you seek it.
Refuah Shleimah and Good Luck

jewish philosopher said...

"No, children are not citizens, not full citizens anyway."

Sure they are.

"If you're talking about me, I don't see the basis from which you make this statement."

You believe that everyone with different beliefs and values is evil.

"with futile attempts by commentators to rebut you."

Because there is really no rebuttal, except some sort appeal to popular opinion, that since most Americans disagree with me I must be wrong.

" Where does the discrimination of Jews, also not a racial minority, fit into your philosophy?"

Jews are a religious community. Sodomy is a grave sin and an unhealthy habit.

Still Curious, how will you respond if your adult child brings home his 6 year old girlfriend?

GodAwful said...

How's your lawsuit against BOCES progressing?

Have you been successful in retaining counsel to proceed with your lawsuit?
To date, it doesn't seem that you can find any that considers your case meritorious.
Looks like its a two room apartment, stale chale and dry potato kugel for your family for the forseeable future.
How does it feel to know that your children will never find shiduchim in the mainstream Orthodox community, because their father is such a demented fool?
What a rachmunis.

jewish philosopher said...

Why do people keep saying I sound angry? Have they read anything written by these Jewish converts to atheism, like the comment above?

NoLiveGod said...

"some sort appeal to popular opinion"

This is exactly the appeal you make. You cite "the Bible" and some long-dead and superseded societies. You think that just because these laws are old they must somehow be correct. You also dogmatically condemn others who disagree with you, charging them with "persecuting" you.

The irony is staggering. Amusing, but staggering.

And since you think children are full citizens, you better kick your kids out of the house right now, as you are holding them hostage. Don't you dare force them to have anything to do with your crazy religion, as you have no right to indoctrinate them and brainwash them.

jewish philosopher said...

Based on science and history, Judaism is simply the obvious truth.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

I don't have any ownship of my children, but rather I have obligations to them. They can leave whenever they want to.

NoLiveGod said...

No, no pastafarianism is the obvious truth.

http://atheistblogger.com/2008/04/05/proof-of-pastafarianism/

It's all sciency and truthy, you see.

Let the kids out of the basement. I bet they try to leave.

jewish philosopher said...

Probably anything makes more sense than atheism.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/08/atheist-creed.html

NoLiveGod said...

"Probably anything makes more sense than atheism."

Absolutely. At some point in time magic had to happen. Hence, yucky guy sex is yucky and the yucky guys should die or at least not have equal rights.

Anonymous said...

No, you certainly didn't make it clear to anyone that your remarks about killing men involved in relations with other men referred to a future messianic era.

Yes, it is true that there is a longing for Moshiach (Messiah) in Judaism. One of the hallmarks of the Messianic Era is that "the lion will lie down with the lamb", and there will be eternal world peace, not to mention an end to anti-semitism. In other words - it's not just about a return to the death penalty, but about an entirely new way for the world to exist, involving some profound changes in nature and revealing G-d in a much more explicit way. If a lion and lamb can change their natures to co-exist, I have some faith that in the era of Moshiach there could be a resolution for those who feel that they have an orientation which isn't compatible with Torah.

Since you write that this blog follows not merely your own views but those of Litvish Judaism, I was wondering if you have a rabbinic advisor to review the site. Whenever I buy Jewish books, even on topics like parenting or healthy eating, there are endorsements from major rabbis at the front of the book - even if the author himself is a rabbi. Where is the endorsement here?

jewish philosopher said...

Well you should know a lot about magic. The idea that worms can morph into people is more magical than anything I've ever heard of. The catholic church is a fortress of rationalism compared to atheism.

jewish philosopher said...

If the american government would adhere to Torah law prior to the messianic era, all the better.

NoLiveGod said...

"Well you should know a lot about magic. The idea that worms can morph into people is more magical than anything I've ever heard of."

You're wrong there. Worms morph into talking snakes and play tricks on naked people.

jewish philosopher said...

Worms stay worms and fools stay fools.

NoLiveGod said...

"Worms stay worms and fools stay fools."

Ugh! An ad hominem and an appeal to ridicule. I'm shocked, I tell you.

Of course snakes can talk. Donkeys too. No magic at all. Believe me, I would never question that. How could anyone?

jewish philosopher said...

The God of Judaism is far superior to the god of atheism, evolution.

The God of Judaism was seen by millions at Mt Sinai. Evolution remains carefully hidden - so slow we cannot see new limbs or organs form in life around us, so fast that it cannot be seen in the fossils either.

Furthermore, the god of atheism can only change existing life. The God of Judaism can create the entire universe.

NoLiveGod said...

"The God of Judaism is far superior to the god of atheism, evolution."

Agreed. But either Fedor Emelianenko or the Flying Spaghetti Monster could kick God's jealous ass.

"The God of Judaism was seen by millions at Mt Sinai."

Ri-iight. Says a book.

"Evolution remains carefully hidden."

Unless you walk into a science classroom or read a book.

"The God of Judaism can create the entire universe."

But Hulk smash!

Anonymous said...

"Furthermore, the god of atheism can only change existing life. The God of Judaism can create the entire universe."
*************************
What kind of a stupid god would create a desire for same sex attraction? No Way that a god like that could have created an entire universe. Hashem must be a real idiot.

jewish philosopher said...

"Unless you walk into a science classroom or read a book."

So evolution exists in a book. A book which contradicts everything which we know about the fossils and about probablity.

"What kind of a stupid god would create a desire for same sex attraction?"

God created evil desires and He created the Torah as a cure.

NoLiveGod said...

"God created evil desires and He created the Torah as a cure."

And then he sent his Son to die for our sins. Is that where you're going?

"So evolution exists in a book."

Yes, that's it. Evolution exists in a book. Think about that for an hour or two. Try not to think about evidence and data collected. Try not to wonder whether your god might only exist in a book.

jewish philosopher said...

We are all God's children and we all die for our own sins.

Evolution is clearly a baseless fantasy.

Evolution proposes that vast amounts of seemingly purposeful complexity can be generated through a random chance process, provided that a great deal of time and space are available and some external selective force limits this random process.

This is basically comparable to someone illiterate attempting to publish books through random trial and error and customer selection. He would buy a printing press, open a bookstore, start printing and make more copies of whatever sold. At first he just arranged his printing type at random, printed and put the results on the shelves. No one bought anything since it was all gibberish. He threw all these failures into the trash bin and continued printing. Eventually, purely by chance, one small booklet actually made sense and in fact became a best seller. So he kept printing more copies of it. Occasionally, there would be some typographical error in the printing; purely by chance, a page would be smudged, a line would be missing. Generally these errors would cause the book to be defective and it would be thrown into the trash, however once in a while a typo would add more meaning to a copy of the book – perhaps a few interesting new sentences. People would ask for more copies of it. The illiterate author would then faithfully reproduce that typo. Gradually entire new books developed through this process of random typographical errors and customer selection. Eventually, the inventory in the book shop had expanded to include tens of millions of titles including novels, plays, poetry, scientific textbooks, history, biography, huge dictionaries and encyclopedias and so on. In fact, these books were actually far more beautiful and profound than books ever written by any human author. All of these were produced by a totally illiterate author through a process of random printing, typos and customer selection over a very long period of time.

Needless to say, such a process is unimaginably unlikely to be successful. It has already been calculated, for example, that the possibility of a monkey typing Hamlet is infinitesimally small.

For more details about this problem, I recommend the book "Not By Chance" by Lee Spetner.

An evolutionist may answer, “True, the chance of life emerging spontaneously is infinitesimally small, however to say that some intelligent designer created life makes the problem even worse, since in that case you must explain how the intelligent designer somehow emerged spontaneously.”

I would respond “Wrong. God is a transcendent being. He exists outside of time and space and His nature is incomprehensible to mere humans. He requires no designer because He has always existed.”

An evolutionist may answer, “I don’t believe in anything transcendent.”

Evolution rests simply on this baseless assertion, not on any evidence.

Anonymous said...

"What kind of a stupid god would create a desire for same sex attraction?"

God created evil desires and He created the Torah as a cure.
************


What kind of a stupid god would create evil desires and Torah as a cure. That's like having a scientist create polio and then the cure. You would either have to be a malevolent sadist or just an idiot to to do that.
It follow then that Hashem must be a malevolent sadist and a real idiot.

GodAwful said...

"I would respond “Wrong. God is a transcendent being. He exists outside of time and space and His nature is incomprehensible to mere humans. He requires no designer because He has always existed.”"
*********************

Its just as easy to say that the universe always existed and likewise evolution.
Its a lot more enjoyable too. No need to engage in dopey rituals like nidda, shabbat transgressions, and shaking live chickens or dead palm branches over your head.

jewish philosopher said...

"What kind of a stupid god would create evil desires and Torah as a cure"

Life is full of temptations. Without them we would be unworthy of the eternal reward. And God, in His infinite kindness, has provided all the tools we need to succeed.

"Its just as easy to say that the universe always existed"

Except we now know it hasn't.

GodAwful said...

"Its just as easy to say that the universe always existed"

Except we now know it hasn't.

Of course it has. Its as absolutely, incontrovertably undeniable as the dogma that god the watchmaker always existed. And just as dubious.

jewish philosopher said...

First of there's the Big Bang.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

Then there's the second law of thermodynamics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy#The_second_law_of_thermodynamics

These don't apply to God.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/12/higher-power-as-i-understand-him.html

Anonymous said...

I feel like the flaw in your logic on this matter should be self-evident. The same evidence which proves the Big Bang is that which proves the age of the universe to be some 13.7 billion years old. You can't look to the evidence and pick what you want and what you don't. I think you'd agree that someone shouldn't look to the Torah and pick and choose what they want to observe. Either you accept it or you don't; you can't have it both ways.

jewish philosopher said...

Age of the earth - no problem.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-i-understand-genesis.html

Anonymous said...

I`m so confused... You admit that both pedophilia and homosexuality are not by choice and are not mental disorders, yet you advocate one and condemn the other? Am I missing something here?

jewish philosopher said...

I'm confused. Why are pedophiles demonized and homosexuals glorified and anyone who says differently is denounced as a criminal? Many other cultures have believed the opposite. There is no self evident, scientific, natural way to decide this. It's just cultural.

Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality said...

When talking about pedophilia, we must be sure to quote verbatim all of the verses in Scripture that condemn it.

jewish philosopher said...

Actually in some circumstances, Jews have actually allowed child brides.

Anonymous said...

It is my belief that gay males have an agenda, similar to a pedophile. If given a choice, a pedophile would pick coercing a child to do an act, than picking a hooker kid. Its about getting something deemed "clean" and thwarting it to one selfish wants! SO TOO GAY MEN. This is seen from party lines, dating sites, and even craigslist. Wherever men and women are hooking up where there can be a level of anonymity, such as via computer, Gay men RACE to. Playing as if they are women, to get a straight man to talk, send pics etc, to them. THIS is the side of homosexuality NO ONE wants to address. They only want to talk about the two daddy two mommy life to make the whole thing seems like its not 100% about sex cruising. How many heterosexuals know about bathrooms where heterosexuals can get quick blow jobs? How many hook up in forest preserves? Is this because of the shame given homosexuality that men do this? NO ITS NOT!!! the trick is to Get NEW people that one has not seen before. LONG TIME GAY cruizers do not hook up, They all WAIT for someone NOT used up. THAT IS THE POINT OF IT ALL MAKE NO MISTAKE. I am talking from being within it as law enforcement, having to arrest people. So I give no room for debate on this. Also the idea that no study has been done to show a link between gay men and pedophiles, is a stupid comment. This is like saying there is no studies done to show how white americans are are directly to blame for blacks and hispanics being at the bottom of every statistical economic list in the country! OF COURSE YOU WONT FIND SUCH A STUDY!!! YOURE LIVING IS WHITE AMERICA! So too the gay studies. Many are done by gay white men or lesbian butch women. Like that comment or not, that is the truth. So Guess what they find? Homoseuality is whatever they want to find it to be.

Anonymous said...

Here is one question you wont find in ANY study of homosexual gay, bottom males..."How old were you the first time you had ANY contact that you deemed sexual from a male" and "Who was the aggressor" and "How old was the person"

What they would find is a MESS of gay bottom males saying how they were under 12 when they had their first sexual contact, and the OTHER person was the aggressor (but the gay man would quickly add, "Oh but I wanted it!"), and the other person was Older...I don't care if it was just by one year older. The gay bottom male will talk how he thinks it normal that sexual behavior starts at 9 or 8, and thinks that ALL little boys start doing their thing with girls at that age! Gay sympathizers will agree, although they themselves didnt start feeling up on the opposite sex at 8, and likely still viewed the opposite sex as "icky".

This poster is RIGHT on track. Whatever logic used to say a pedophile is wrong, can be used to say homosexuality is as well. In fact, marrying one's own brother or sister, could use the same trickery as the homosexuals use today to gain "rights". Whatever logic used against them, could be used against homosexuals as well.

Make no mistake, gay movements is about non restricted, open sex. In the STREET if they had their way. Sound extreme? Look at carnival, or marti gras. (fat tuesday celebrations) around the world. The most elaborate people? Gay men. OPEN SEXUAL ACTS IN THE STREET? gay men. The Pro gay festivals around the world? OPEN SEXUAL ACTS ON THE STREET during them. They are not frowned upon by attendees like sex is during typical celebrations such as 4th of july parties. WHY would such celebrations not be equal in class and dignaty?! BECAUSE ITS A GAY PRIDE festival thats why...and along with that comes open sexual behavior on the street in the public. So like that comment or not, Its already happening, and on Youtube! LOL

Bring up pedophilia and gay rights people become enraged!
Yet look ! SEE! OPEN YOUR EYES! the priest's victims are overwhelmingly living gay or bisexual lives when we see them on tv coming forth are they not?

Whenever we see a story about teachers that are male, how many times is it a man and boy? YES there are men and girls. But men/boys? Are we this much in denial to make the gay point? HOW can a pedophile who always wantsa boys, NOT be gay?! How about this then....Hes a GAY PEDOPHILE.... can you agree with that!?