Tuesday, August 10, 2010

Will Atheism Make You Crazy?


One thing I've always wondered about, is how can a sincere, thoughtful atheist look at himself in the mirror and say to himself "I am merely a soulless, worthless bag of chemicals. I will soon deteriorate and disintegrate. I have no free will; that is merely a delusion. All my thoughts, words and deeds are predetermined and controlled solely by the laws of nature."

It seems to me that someone who actually thinks this way would lose his sanity. It's almost as if he is imagining his own self to be imaginary. I have sometimes wondered if this was the real cause of Friedrich Nietzsche's madness.

48 comments:

Garnel Ironheart said...

It all depends on the self-awareness a person possesses. A person lacking such a sense would look in the mirror and think "Hey, I need to shave today". He wouldn't think any further than what he has to do next and possibly his vacation plans.
Even one with self-awareness would have to have a moral sense that there is something wrong and futile about being here without life serving a higher purpose. SOmeone who thinks that life is just for the here and now probably wouldn't be bothered either.

jewish philosopher said...

Well, that's why I said "a sincere, thoughtful atheist".

NoLiveGod said...

It's quite easy to look at myself in the mirror and say these things. I don't use words like "merely," however. Also, your concept of "predetermination" is too simple--there are, after all, random events that engage our genetic predispositions and environmental conditioning.

But I love remembering that I am made of the same stuff as stars. I think it's important to remember that I have only one life and a too-brief time to spend with my wife, my children, my parents and my brothers. This makes me focus on enjoying our time together. When I think about how there's no magic man in the sky watching over my thoughts and actions, I realize that I am responsible for my own well-being and that I can trust myself to act competently--it all makes me recognize that whatever happens is going to happen and that I can't change it my appealing to an imaginary judge.

Far from losing sanity, I have claimed it through Atheism. I don't think that Judaism is insane, but I don't think belief in God and obsessive devotion to Torah can be considered rational, even by you.

What would the religious person say to himself or herself in the mirror? "I am a sinful and wicked human being made by a vengeful God to worship Him in exactly the way he dictated to a small band of desert nomads in a remote corner of Earth thousands of years before science and technology. I have no freedom of action, but I do have freedom of choice. My thoughts and desires mean nothing; the only thing that counts is Him and obeying Him, for I am but a child. I am afraid, uncertain, and closed. I fear and hate those outside of my group, I cannot trust anyone, and I detest new knowledge that challenges what I want to be true."

Sorry, a grown up can no longer honestly be a religious person, Jew or Gentile.

jewish philosopher said...

"I don't use words like "merely," however."

With about 1E+24 stars in the observable universe

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEM75BS1VED_index_0.html

a 100 kilo bag of chemicals which will disintegrate in less than a century doesn't sound too important.

"there are, after all, random events that engage our genetic predispositions and environmental conditioning"

Above the subatomic level, nothing is random. We simply don't have the means to predict it.

http://www.askamathematician.com/?p=612

"I realize that I am responsible for my own well-being and that I can trust myself to act competently"

You will do exactly what the laws of nature determine you will do and no one, including you, can know what that will be.

"before science and technology"

Aren't science and technology those things which have lately stagnated and soon will probably kill most of us?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/10/has-science-fizzled-out.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/07/apocalypse-soon.html

NoLiveGod said...

OK. So why worry? Why be concerned about "importance"?

Look, you fear a world without God so you make him up. That's fine. You're just like every other fundamentalist, radical, zealot, and true-believer that's ever been. You think your cult is the one and only way to happiness. Really, it's cool.

I suppose it's a good thing that you want to try and think like an Atheist. I'm trying to help you:
(1) Remember that you are made of the same stuff as everything else in the universe. The same chemicals and everything. We're all connected.
(2) You will soon deteriorate and disintegrate. But the struggles of this life are lessened by the love of friends and family.
(3) You have no free will, but you have consciousness. Use it.
(4) You are a product of nature. Keep learning about nature, as it is an endless source of knowledge and delight.

I simply cannot see how you get to anything negative from thinking like an Atheist. Keep trying and keep questioning. Superficially, it might seem nice to be "made in God's image" or to have a "soul" or "free will." It might seem pleasant to think about "heaven" and to imagine your enemies suffering in "hell." But these are mere fantasies; they are wishful thinking without any evidence at all for their truth.

One day, you'll be able to admit this.

jewish philosopher said...

"you fear a world without God so you make him up."

Actually, I think my motives are clearly very honest.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/01/motives.html

"We're all connected."

We are all connected
To each other, biologically
To the earth, chemically
To the rest of the universe atomically

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_of_Science#We_are_All_Connected

So what? I am biologically connected to Hitler and atomically connected to my toilet, whatever that means.

"But the struggles of this life are lessened by the love of friends and family."

That's interesting, because atheists seem to have a hard time with family. Can you name one prominent atheist who has had two or more children and has raised them to age 18 together with their other parent? Of course, among Orthodox Jews, that's the norm.

"you have consciousness. Use it."

We see ourselves as inhabiting our bodies but we don't identify ourselves by it. But according to atheism that's just another delusion.

"it is an endless source of knowledge and delight"

Actually, science won't make you happy.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/01/chandra-good-atheist.html

I think you're really struggling with atheism. It's so obvious it doesn't make sense.

Anonymous said...

"That's interesting, because atheists seem to have a hard time with family. Can you name one prominent atheist who has had two or more children and has raised them to age 18 together with their other parent? Of course, among Orthodox Jews, that's the norm."

P.Z. Myers

NoLiveGod said...

"So what? I am biologically connected to Hitler and atomically connected to my toilet, whatever that means."

It's true. I find the connection to be a source of great wonder.

Most ultra families I know are very unhappy because at least one child children eventually wakes up and rejects the old-time religion. The hard-core ultras, however, simply dis-own their "wayward" children. Yeah, happy families.

Religion certainly is no formula for happiness. Many ultras and rabbis go trolling for sex on other blogs (e.g., you), or they go to strip clubs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRWai-66b0) or they go around with cocaine and hookers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMFjAjpS5s4).

jewish philosopher said...

"P.Z. Myers"

I can't find anything about his family.

"Most ultra families I know are very unhappy because at least one child children eventually wakes up and rejects the old-time religion."

You don't know the right families.

"The hard-core ultras, however, simply dis-own their "wayward" children."

Atheists don't need any such excuses. Is Richard Dawkins on speaking terms with his only child?

"Many ultras and rabbis go trolling for sex on other blogs (e.g., you)"

Could you please tell me who you are so I can sue you for libel?

"or they go to strip clubs"

Like the well known atheist Richard Feynman who used a nude/topless bar as an office away from his usual office? Was he trying to get more connected?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Personal_life

NoLiveGod said...

The final answer to your question is no, Atheism will not make you crazy. However, I think religious rituals are a form of craziness: obsession with the trivial, speaking to imaginary beings, assertion of other creatures and other-dimensional realms, intolerance and anti-social behavior (didja hear the one about the rabbi who assaulted little girls who were on go-carts?), self-obsession, and so on.

Really, what ARE the positive virtues that are inherent only to religion, any religion? I fail to what religion actually does except mandate social conformity.

jewish philosopher said...

"Atheism will not make you crazy."

Probably because no one really believes it.

"Really, what ARE the positive virtues that are inherent only to religion, any religion?"

I'm glad you asked.

Happiness.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/04/real-happiness.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/08/religion-and-happiness-recent-study.html

Social harmony and sobriety.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/10/god-save-king-why-we-need-both.html

In addition of course to the infinite reward in the afterlife.

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Anonymous said...

This blind hatred of atheists is a rather strange position, of what value is it too posess such vitriol? While we're on the subject what is your view on Deists, Pantheists and other alternative beliefs? Or is anyone who doesn't goose-step with you 'insane'?

jewish philosopher said...

There are a lot of bad religions around, however atheism is probably the worst.

Anonymous said...

"I simply cannot see how you get to anything negative from thinking like an Atheist."

Atheism cannot lead to the formation of moral absolutes. Nothing is moral or immoral of necessity. All you have are, at best, basic human sensitivities, largely bred into you from a society that gives passing nod to traditional religious values.

Societies founded upon atheism (N. Korea, Soviet Russia, Communist China) are known for their barbarism, and inhumanity.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous:

Since the worse mass murderers in history where atheists, and a disproportionate number of atheists were mass murderers, and vise versa, and every time atheists run a country, they commit mass murder, is it any wonder some people are a little leary of atheists?

And I do believe that studies show that religious people tend to have more stable lives, and are healthier mentally than secular people by whatever metric is used.

And if secularism makes people happy, why are suicide rates so high in Scandanavia and Japan those secular paradises. Now, the suicide rates are highest in atheistic countries.

Anonymous said...

The intellectual level of this blog is about that of a pre-adolescent 8 year old. It consists of same:

1. I am better than you, na na na na na
2. anybody who doesn't believe in my religion is an idiot and/or condemned to hell and a life of decadence.
3. I mine for bogus "proofs" of my opinion and ignore, or are ignorant of, all scholarly discussion of a topic.
4. I wish the world is to be a certain way, therefore it is. Souls, heavenly judges, hell, inerrant holy books-- all of it wraps the world and our existence into a neat little package.
5. If science disagrees with my opinion, than all of the scientists are liars and its a conspiracy theory.

JP, you live a very limited and sorry world.

Avi Bitterman said...

"One thing I've always wondered about, is how can a sincere, thoughtful atheist look at himself in the mirror and say to himself "I am merely a soulless, worthless bag of chemicals. I will soon deteriorate and disintegrate. I have no free will; that is merely a delusion."

Meh, I sincerely believe that. Pretty sure I'm not psychotic, crazy, insane, or anything like that. I'm still going through university to go to med school, still planning on saving lives, still going to volunteer in the ER..etc

Nothing really changed except the orthodoxy.

NC said...

I consider myself an agnostic-- there's probably no god, but it can't be proven or disproven. And I am man enough to accept that when I die, that's the end.

So I live my life accordingly--happily. No drugs or alcohol, and sex only with my wife. My kids are grown and well adjusted. I try to live a happy and meaningful life, no differently than a religious person-- I don't need a cosmic purpose.

I have many friends who are the same.

JP you take your anecdotal examples of notorious public figures who proclaim their atheism, as "proof" of atheist's lifestyle. The fact is that many public figures, atheists or not, have screwed up lives-- by nature of their professions.

Anonymous who said: "Since the worse mass murderers in history where atheists, and a disproportionate number of atheists were mass murderers, and vise versa, "

You, like JP, select anecdote as proof, the weakest form of evidence. Argument from Hitler. Then you ignore the thousands of years of human history replete with religious wars, slaughters and torture in the name of god.

This type of fallacious argument, which JP is also very fond of, reflects poor intellectual honesty and predetermined agenda. Its called confirmation bias.

If religion makes people happy, so be it, but they should keep their noses out of other people's lives (and their bedrooms).

jewish philosopher said...

"JP, you live a very limited and sorry world."

I know. I voted for Obama, but it hasn't helped.

Seriously, I understand atheism. I understand the irrefutable logic and the undeniable evidence behind atheism.

The way it works is like this.

A man (and it's almost always men who are atheists) is sitting in a strip club. He may be a professor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Personal_life

or a humble office worker

http://www.unpious.com/2010/03/sin-samantha-talmud/

Time is passing. Whiskey is flowing. Girls are dancing. Suddenly, like a bolt from the blue, our young thinker realizes "There is no God! I have no soul! There is no afterlife, no Torah! I just evolved from nothing! LOL! ROFLOL!!"

So there you have it. The whiskey is the logic, the stripper is the evidence and it's all absolutely irrefutable. And since everyone else in the strip club agrees, then it's unanimous. Case closed.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/07/of-course-its-all-about-science.html

"Meh, I sincerely believe that."

Just like when you were Orthodox, you were going through the motions without really understanding it, probably the same is true now of your atheism.

"still planning on saving lives"

You see, this is an excellent example of self contradictions, often seen in believers in false religions.

From an Orthodox Jewish point of view, saving lives makes sense. The Torah commands us "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev. 19:18

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0319.htm#18

From an atheistic point of view, a human being is merely a soulless, worthless bag of about 100 kilo of chemicals which will disintegrate in less than an century in the midst of an observable universe containing about 10^24 stars which has existed for 14 billion years.

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEM75BS1VED_index_0.html

Saving lives makes no more sense than saving beer cans.

"The fact is that many public figures, atheists or not, have screwed up lives-- by nature of their professions."

Many people period have screwed up lives, but atheists apparently make a point of it.

"Then you ignore the thousands of years of human history replete with religious wars, slaughters and torture in the name of god."

There are a lot of bad religions around, however atheism is probably the worst.

"but they should keep their noses out of other people's lives"

Do atheists? Look at any officially atheist state, regarding how they treat other religions.

Richard Dawkins writes:

"Humphrey argues that, in the same way as Amnesty works tirelessly to free political prisoners the world over, we should work to free the children of the world from the religions which, with parental approval, damage minds too young to understand what is happening to them."

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/118

In other words, because I disagree with him, Professor Dawkins would apparently like to see my children removed from me and placed in an institution where they would be raised according to his religion.

Of course, this is not original to Dawkins. As with many of his ideas, this was done in the Soviet Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union#Soviet_tactics

I love that desire not to get involved in people's lives.

Anonymous said...

NC:

You seem to be confusing anecdote with statistics. There where ~82 atheist heads of state. 52 of them where directly responsible for at least 20,000 murders. While there have been bad things done by religious people, there have been thousands of theistic rulers, and most of them never killed anybody. The numbers are against you.

NC said...

Source?

Anonymous said...

Here's a list:


Afghanistan Nur Muhammad Taraki, Babrak Kamal
Albania Enver Hoxha
Angola Agostinho Neto, José Eduardo dos Santos
Bulgaria Vulko Chervenkov, Todor Zhivkov
Cambodia Pol Pot, Heng Samrin
China Mao Tse-Tung, Hua Guofeng, Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintau
Cuba Fidel Castro
Czechoslovakia Klement Gottwald, Antonín Zápotocký, Antonín Novotný, Gustáv Husák
East Germany Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker
Ethiopia Tafari Benti, Mengistu Haile Mariam
French Republic Jean-Marie Collot d’Herbois, Jacques Nicolas Billaud-Varenne
Greece Nikolaos Zachariadis
Hungary Mátyás Rákosi
Laos Kaysone Phomvihane, Khamtai Siphandone
Mongolia Khorloogiin Choibalsan, Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal
Mozambique Samora Machel
North Korea Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il
Poland Władysław Gomułka, Boleslaw Bierut
Romania Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, Nicolae Ceausescu
Soviet Union Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev
Spain Manuel Azaña, Francisco Largo Caballero
Vietnam Ho Chi Minh, Le Duan, Truong Chinh, Nguyen Van Linh, Do Muoi, Le Kha Phieu, Nong Duc Manh
Yugoslavia Josip Broz Tito

Anonymous said...

The death tally:

Theism has managed to kill an estimate of 2,229,074,100 people.

Atheism has managed to kill an estimate of 95,000,000 people.

http://atheistblogger.com/2008/07/02/death-toll-theism-vs-atheism/

Anonymous said...

There have been thousands of theistic kings, princes, etc over the centuries. Most of them never killed anybody. So if the atheist succeed in making the world atheistic, we can expect to see a marked increase in mass murder.

Anonymous said...

Prof Rummel puts the midrange estimate of democide by atheists at 148,000,000.

And the source you linked might not ahve all his facts straight. He said that there were 9,000,000 deaths caused by the crusades. Prof Rummel's high estimate is 1,000,000.

He also wrote that Mussolini was not an atheist. He was.

And he also wrote that Hitler was a Catholic. He might have been raised a Catholic, but he made it abundantly clear from "Mein Kampf" and his second book, that his core belief system was evolution.

Anonymous said...

And according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Shi_Rebellion

the drop in population due to the rebellion was not due to actual deaths, bu the breakdown of the census system.

NC said...

Great list that teapot atheist made!

As long as we're playing the numbers game, lets not forget the biggest mass murderer of the all: GOD

100's of millions of people who were killed by god throughout history, from famine, disease, floods, earthquakes, mudslides and other natural disasters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_disasters

Lets also remember that in the past 200 years the technological means for efficient killing through war increased multifold. Ancient men were not atheists but lacked the technical means to slaughter by the millions.

Anonymous said...

As far as I can tell, the 36,000,000 killed by Ghengis Khan appears to be an overestimate. Some of the countries occupied by the Monguls experienced a population drop, but that may very well be due to disruption of the local census systems, not massacres.

jewish philosopher said...

"lets not forget the biggest mass murderer of the all: GOD"

Murder means killing an innocent person and God has never done that, as I've explained in more detail here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/08/kindness-of-suffering.html

Actually, God is the epitome of kindness, as I've explained in more detail here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/12/higher-power-as-i-understand-him.html

From the atheistic point of view, however, there is surely no reason to hesitate to murder or to feel guilty about it.

First of all, a human being is merely a soulless, worthless bag of about 100 kilo of chemicals which will disintegrate in less than an century in the midst of an observable universe containing about 10^24 stars which has existed for 14 billion years.

Secondly, we in any case have no free will. Anything we do is merely the result of brain chemistry, childhood experiences, etc. A notorious rapist and murder recently explained in a televised interview "I could not stop myself. I was — had a major rage, and (was) pissed off, and pissed off at my whole life and everybody that’s hurt me."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttFqgCYnzKI

Once these types of perverted and insane ideas seep out of the universities and into the world at large, the result are monsters like John Gardner or Jeff Dahmer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjW7bezdddE

NC said...

"Murder means killing an innocent person and God has never done that, as I've explained in more detail here."

Then none of the Nazi victims were innocent either. The Nazis never killed anybody who was innocent, so they claimed. Just like your claim. So the Nazis were not mass murderers, but rather just and kind people, just like your God.

Mr Anon theist-- neither you or anybody else here is qualified to verify every detail of the sources brought here. Therefore, if you want to make a claim, then bring an objective, expert, unbiased source that is mutually acceptable. Otherwise you can quote Bible and I can quote Dawkins.

Lets just say that any political or tribal claim, whether or not based on religion, can make people do bad things.

Anonymous said...

NC:

Theists in the twentieth century have access to the same mass murder machinery that the atheist mass murderers do, but they don't kill as many as the atheists do.

And the favorite method of murder used by Stalin and Mao was starvation, very low tech. The Khmer Rouge liked to bash people on the head with shovels.

Anonymous said...

Prof Rummel is considered the most authoritative person on Democide. The numbers I sited come from him.

Anonymous said...

"Murder means killing an innocent person and God has never done that, as I've explained in more detail here."

Translation: "I have a special definition that only applies for God because I cannot bring myself to admit that he's the most horrible character in all of fiction."

God wouldn't have the moral authority to decide who is "innocent" and who is not.

jewish philosopher said...

According to Judaism, God controls everything.

"I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things."

http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm

In addition, God is just and merciful.

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

Regarding the question of why the innocent suffer, various explanations have been given.

http://www.torah.org/features/spirfocus/suffering.html

In addition to this, man has free will. "All is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven" (Talmud, Berachot 33b)

http://www.come-and-hear.com/berakoth/berakoth_33.html#PARTb

Man is rewarded for making good choices and punished for making bad choices.

"I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him."

http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm

Regarding the question of God committing "murder", I think that is merely semantics.

William Blackstone (citing Edward Coke), in his Commentaries on the Laws of England set out the common law definition of murder as “when a person, of sound memory and discretion, unlawfully killeth any reasonable creature in being and under the king's peace, with malice aforethought, either express or implied."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Legal_analysis_of_murder

God is not a person, hence He cannot be found guilty of murder.

The Nazis were people, hence they were guilty of murder.

NC said...

Dogma

GodAwful said...

Stein:
Murder means killing an innocent person and God has never done that, as I've explained in more detail here.

You've explained nothing, just rationalized murder as heavenly justice. When is wanton extermination not murder? When god is the instrument of bloodlust, whether its the murder of amalekite infants or the extermination of an entire town if persons therein worships another god.
No, god is just as malevolent as Pol Pot. That you are inspired by a murderous deity, says much about the murderous design that your ilk anticipate for a hapless homosexual or Jews not to your liking : "The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon." (Judges 20:48 NAB)
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

Anonymous said...

GDF:

What exactly is your basis for saying that something is evil? What is your criteria for determining evil? And what is your basis for saying evil even exists?

And it is interesting that you have to go back 3000 years to find a massacre perpetrated by Orthodox Jews, and based on a source that you don't consider accurate, while atheists are still committing mass murder as I type this.

Anonymous said...

Just think of the major conflicts around the world right now. How many are rooted in religious difference?

Israel?
Afghanistan?
Pakistan?
Iraq?
Somalia?
Sudan?

jewish philosopher said...

"Dogma"

Perhaps. Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

However Judaism is based on the clearest facts concerning the nature of life and Jewish history, as I've explained here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

Evolution, on the contrary, is atheistic dogma based on fantasy, as I have explained here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/03/evolution-science-hijacked-by-atheism.html

"That you are inspired by a murderous deity, says much about the murderous design that your ilk anticipate for a hapless homosexual or Jews not to your liking"

Actually, Orthodox Jews probably have the lowest rate of murder of any religious community, as I've explained here.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

Atheists, unfortunately not so much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Number_of_people_executed

Your pseudo-humanitarianism, weeping over babies killed three thousand years ago in a Bible you don't even believe in while glossing over modern genocides, is as heart warming as the famous Nazi concern for animal welfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_welfare_in_Nazi_Germany

Hitler couldn't bear to see an animal suffer, he was vegetarian, while he ordered the extermination of millions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism

I'm not saying that the Nazis were necessarily atheists; many were. However I am just comparing their revolting logical inconsistencies to your own.

Nothing is more amusing than a triple A - Another Atheist Asshole.

"How many are rooted in religious difference?"

You mean rooted in Islam, an evil religion

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/09/islam-form-of-satanism_10.html

although atheism is actually even worse.

GodAwful said...

Mr Stein
"Actually, Orthodox Jews probably have the lowest rate of murder of any religious community, as I've explained here."

That's true. And we want to make sure it stays that way by incapacitating biblical intolerance with publicization of god's malevolence. You can espouse your dopey blather to your hearts content. But as long as you have no power to implelement god's murderous designs, you're just another hysterical, screwey, ultra-right fundie, with no capacity to harm anyone. And we'll make sure it stays that way.

NoLiveGod said...

"although atheism is actually even worse."

Yawn. Yeah, yeah, yeah--atheism is a "religion" just like Judaism but worse. Islam's just like Judaism, too, except "evil."

Unfortunately, the behavior of Jews--Orthodox, ultra-orthodox, and of every other stripe--in Israel with regard to their Palestinian brothers and sisters is hardly exemplary.y.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_Conflict

And the behavior of Jews with regard to other Jews is hardly exemplary.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html

But...let's return to the Original post. I am as sincere an atheist as can be (which is a funny expression since I don't think I "sincerely" disbelieve in gods--I simply choose not to believe in gods based on books and ancient traditions, especially when they each get so many basic facts incorrect), and I look in the mirror every day. I see no difference between atheists, jews, muslims and other people in terms of happiness, self-fulfillment, assholery, wealth, and so on.

You may think that atheism makes one crazy, but I think you credit atheism with far too much influence. You think that Judaism gives one "real" happiness, but I think also give Judaism too much influence.

I don't see Judaism as much more than a schtick. In my experience, people don't really believe in God. You don't. If you really truly believed in God, you would (a) be too afraid to make your own blog and speak with so little restraint, and (b) follow the Torah much more than you do. If you really believed in God, you would talk about him, not about atheists and kidneys and little girls that get you hot.

You believe in rabbis and talmud, not God. In fact, I don't see any evidence that you know anything at all on your own about God.

Please, do tell, what EXACTLY do you know about God? Why do you rely on atheists to tell you about him?

jewish philosopher said...

"we want to make sure it stays that way by incapacitating biblical intolerance"

What's interesting is that the last time the rabbis had the authority to impose capital punishment, they seldom used it. "A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_capital_punishment#Judaism

In atheistic states, however, blood has flowed like water. The Khmer Rouge murdered about two million in four years. Pretty nice work, considering that the Cambodian population was only about 7 million to begin with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge#Crimes_against_humanity

But why not? To an atheist, human life is not more sacred than microbial life.

"the behavior of Jews--Orthodox, ultra-orthodox, and of every other stripe--in Israel with regard to their Palestinian brothers and sisters is hardly exemplary.y."

Well that's just a lie.

Ultra-orthodox (which is today about 85% of all Orthodox) are anti-Zionist and ridiculed as "draft dodgers".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-hasty-decision-on-draft-dodging-1.305878

"If you really believed in God, you would talk about him, not about atheists and kidneys and little girls that get you hot."

The purpose of this blog is to promote Orthodox Judaism and to critique other ideologies, in particular atheism: promoting truth and real happiness; fighting lies and harmful addictions.

"Please, do tell, what EXACTLY do you know about God?"

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/12/higher-power-as-i-understand-him.html


I love it. Two Triple A's. Stereo nonsense.

NoLiveGod said...

How you understand God:

"He is infinite - in regards to time, space and strength."

Prove it. What is the evidence that shows this? What's the alternative explanation?

"He is eternal, He is everywhere and He does everything."

Prove it. What is the evidence that shows this? What's the alternative explanation?

"He has no physical form and His nature is entirely beyond our comprehension."

Prove it. What is the evidence that shows this? What's the alternative explanation?

You see, I will constant press you to deliver evidence or data that supports these assertions. But the assertions really make no sense as far as I can tell.

If something is truly infinite, how do we apprehend it? How do we recognize the boundary between God and not-God?

If his nature is entirely beyond our comprehension, then by what arrogance do you claim to comprehend anything about him, including the knowledge that he is ENTIRELY (your word) beyond your capabilities of understanding?

You are betting everything on wishful thinking: "I bet there's a super-awesome being that's the absolute best at everything!" You worship your own hopes and fears.

Sorry if this makes me a triple-A, but I guess it takes one to know one.

NC said...

Regarding the main assertion of the post:

Animals, and children who have not learned about god, all can look in the mirror. And none of them go crazy, even though they know nothing of a soul, a creator, or any other such nonsense. They just go on with their lives.

And eventually we all die.

Get over it.

NC said...

Don't you realize how laughable your comments sound?

You keep repeating the same worn out arguments used by Christian theologions from the Middle Ages, which have no credibility in the 21st century. Then, when your theological arguments are discredited, you make unproven and absurd claims about atheism being a "religion" that promotes mass murder, and that only Judaism promotes morality and happiness. You then go on to declare evolutionary biology, zoology and paleontology as false and conspiracy theories.

You really aren't standing up to your stated purpose of the blog. You aren't promoting Talmudic Judaism, you're discrediting it.

JP, really, think of something else.

jewish philosopher said...

"How you understand God"

Our knowledge of God is based on what He has told us about Himself. This is included in the Torah.

"If something is truly infinite, how do we apprehend it?"

Scientists speculate that the universe may be infinite, however this doesn't seem to be a problem.

http://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/5-8/features/F_How_Big_is_Our_Universe.html

"How do we recognize the boundary between God and not-God?"

There may be no boundary. God is the only true reality and we are merely a thought in His imagination.

"If his nature is entirely beyond our comprehension, then by what arrogance do you claim to comprehend anything about him, including the knowledge that he is ENTIRELY (your word) beyond your capabilities of understanding?"

I don't understand why something can't be entirely beyond our comprehension. The human mind is limited in many ways. Take the problem of what existed before the Big Bang for example.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/site/faq.html

"Animals, and children who have not learned about god, all can look in the mirror."

Animals do not have the same type of minds that we have.

Children do naturally believe in God and the soul.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/10/18/the_soul_it_may_all_be_in_your_mind/

"You aren't promoting Talmudic Judaism, you're discrediting it."

Fine. Can you provide a reasonably plausible, detailed atheistic explanation for the unanimous acceptance of the Torah as authentic by Jews and Samaritans from ancient until modern times? If there is no God, what compelled them to believe this story? And can you provide a reasonably plausible, detailed, atheistic explanation for the origin of any functioning organ or limb in any past or present animal? How can a watch exist without the aid of a watchmaker?

Anonymous said...

This strange guideline you've put up does not define an honest atheist. Atheism is not a religion, it is not a set of beliefs nor a doctrine. You cannot indoctrinate a human being to Atheism. It's either this: You believe in God or you don't. Whatever else you put inbetween that is yours to pick. You can have radical atheists that will spit on the cross and shit on a priest. You can also have honest-to-god Atheists that just don't value God as a personal guide to their own lives. Atheism is not the same as Christianity, Buddhism, Islam or any other possible religion you can think of. - By this, I mean it isn't that: A religion. You will have atheist conventions, but the man at the front is not a priest, his word is not respected by all in the audience. Nor are atheists obligated by some obscure book to show up to these conventions. In fact, there is no such thing as a book for Atheism. If you'd say Richard Dawkins is widely respected within the atheist community, I'd say you're right. However, the God Delusion is not a must read in order to be an accomplished atheist. It is simply a book with a man's views, and this man appears to be Atheist. So, before you go and presume Atheists don't value life itself, read a little more on the subject. - As for your beliefs that "the many justify the belief", I could translate that into: Well, Hitler probably was right if all these million folks decided to follow him in his crusade to end all non-pure blooded individuals.

jewish philosopher said...

No it's a religion. Just a terrible one.

http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2009/05/atheism-in-nutshell.html