Sunday, June 27, 2010

Love Sweet Love


[Channing Tatum and Amanda Seyfried portray young lovers in Dear John]

What could be more beautiful than young love - spontaneous, overpowering, euphoric, exciting. Endless popular movies, songs and novels celebrate it. But the Torah prohibits any sexual stimulation outside of marriage and many people find this to be very oppressive.

Is there another side of the coin which doesn't always get in the movies? What are some of the downsides of sex outside marriage?

Pubic crabs
Genital herpes
Genital warts
Gonorrhea
Syphilis
HIV
Rejection
Betrayal
Depression
Stalking
Date rape
Unwanted pregnancy
Abortion
Sometimes suicide.
Occasionally even murder.

The vast majority of promiscuous girls regret their behavior. Research indicates that many girls have extra-marital sex merely because men demand it.

Even masturbation can become compulsive, especially with today's Internet porn sites.

On the other hand, I doubt anyone has regretted chastity.

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

"But the Torah prohibits any sexual stimulation outside of marriage"

The Torah didn't prohibit it. The Rabbis did.

jewish philosopher said...

Not really. To quote the Torah:

Ye shall be holy; for I the LORD your God am holy. Leviticus 19:2

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0319.htm#2

And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye go not about after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go astray; that ye may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy unto your God. Numbers 15:39-40

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0415.htm#39

Anonymous said...

That's very allegorical, but not a source of halacha or any of the 613 mitzvot.

jewish philosopher said...

Those verses mean exactly what they appear to mean. A person's material desires must not be indulged in for their own sakes.

As it says in Pirkei Avot 2:12 "all your deeds should be for the sake of Heaven".

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2011/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm

GodAwful said...

...Those verses mean exactly what they appear to mean. A person's material desires must not be indulged in for their own sakes. As it says in Pirkei Avot 2:12 "all your deeds should be for the sake of Heaven"...

That sure sounds a lot like Alice in Wonderland logic, but a lot more comical and absurd..
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' "

jewish philosopher said...

And according to you "Ye shall be holy; for I the LORD your God am holy." means exactly what?

My point is that chastity wasn't merely invented by the rabbis.

GodAwful said...

...And according to you "Ye shall be holy; for I the LORD your God am holy." means exactly what?...

It means nothing because there is no LORD your god. Its value has the same importance as Zeus' power to control the sky and all atomospheric conditions such as lighting, tornadoes and wind.

...My point is that chastity wasn't merely invented by the rabbis...
Nothing wrong with a little chastity now and then, but nothing wrong with intimate sexual activity outside of marriage by two careful, loving consenting adults in a committed relationship.
Only you think that gratuitous sex defines every relationship outside of marriage. And of course the consequence is your crazy promotion of chastity belts for all unmarried persons.

jewish philosopher said...

"It means nothing because there is no LORD your god."

Wishful thinking, the basis for all false religions, including atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking

"but nothing wrong with intimate sexual activity outside of marriage by two careful, loving consenting adults in a committed relationship"

I think that is basically marriage.

"And of course the consequence is your crazy promotion of chastity belts for all unmarried persons."

In your case, castration would probably be wiser.

Anonymous said...

"Those verses mean exactly what they appear to mean. A person's material desires must not be indulged in for their own sakes."

So eating anything beyond absolute survival is prohibited. And so is reading a book or watching a movie. And so is sex with one's spouse. All of these are indulging. Interesting that the Rabbis say nothing about this.

Be honest. The torah says nothing about the "sin" of premarital/extramarital sex (other than adultery, which is specified), and is mentioned in a matter of fact way in many places in the Bible.

The prudish attitude regarding sex only developed later under the rabbis, and subsequently even more so due to the influences of Islam and Christianity.

Having said that, I agree that the sexual freedoms attained in modern western countries has come with a cost.

But the price of repression is greater.

jewish philosopher said...

"So eating anything beyond absolute survival is prohibited. And so is reading a book or watching a movie. And so is sex with one's spouse. All of these are indulging. Interesting that the Rabbis say nothing about this."

Sure they did. As it says in Pirkei Avot 2:12 "all your deeds should be for the sake of Heaven".

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2011/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm

Additionally, the Torah states:

"There shall be no harlot of the daughters of Israel" Deut. 23:18

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0523.htm#18

"the price of repression is greater."

How do you figure that? I think you'd have a hard time finding middle aged people regretting the chastity of their of youth, while plenty of promiscuous people are walking around with chronic diseases, emotional trauma, infertility, kids with no father, etc.

Anonymous said...

According to some recent studies, 25% of teenage girls have an STD. And 25% of all women have herpes. And high schools have to have day care centers on site to accomomdate the children of the students. And the kids of teenage single mothers suffer from every sort of pathology. And society is paying for all this. So the cost, whether in financial terms, or base on happiness, or whatever metric you use, is not worth it.

erstwhile orthodox said...

'How do you figure that? I think you'd have a hard time finding middle aged people regretting the chastity of their of youth, while plenty of promiscuous people are walking around with chronic diseases, emotional trauma, infertility, kids with no father, etc."

Ha Ha Ha ! What a stupid charactarization. I repudiated orthodoxy when I was in my mid 40's and regret the chastity of my youth. I also know many other formerly orthodox jews who have gone the same path. Those of us not married have wonderful non-marital sex. Your sweeping categorical statements prove that you probably are as dumb as your remarks.

Anonymous said...

"I think you'd have a hard time finding middle aged people regretting the chastity of their of youth"

Yeah, I sure don't wish I'd gotten laid more.

jewish philosopher said...

"Your sweeping categorical statements prove that you probably are as dumb as your remarks."

Read what I wrote: "you'd have a hard time finding middle aged people regretting the chastity of their of youth"

Where exactly can I find you, sir, or those "other formerly orthodox jews who have gone the same path."

For all I know, you're 14 years old and making this up.

And even if I believe you, what percentage do you think you represent of middle aged people?

On the other hand, there are tens of millions of Americans who were promiscuous and are walking around with chronic diseases, emotional trauma, infertility, kids with no father, etc.

I think you'll find that very few parents go around thinking to themselves "I really hope my kids in their youth have plenty of sex with a lot of random people." especially if they have daughters.

Anonymous said...

Erstwhile orthodox

According to the latest research, you are at a 10% risk for getting herpes. If yuo where female and practising the same lifestyle, your risk would be 20%. And that's just herpes. Are you sure its worth it?

Anonymous said...

For all of you JP sidekicks whining about how terrible life has become because of modern freedoms, consider that life span, overall health, and quality of life, has steadily improved in the last 80 years in western countries.

The bottom line-- people are living longer and are more prosperous than they ever were, despite all of the dangers lurking about. So I don't know what depraved and dark cave you guys live in.

Shalmo said...

JP why have you made no comment about the recent Flotilla massacre? I would assume it would be a golden opportunity to expose the lunacies of modern zionism, something you and I agree on

jewish philosopher said...

Why is promiscuity a "modern freedom"? Prostitution is actually called the "oldest profession". I'm not sure about that, however it certainly has a very distinguished history.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/gendersexuality/tp/History-of-Prostitution.htm

My question to all the ex-Orthodox out there who repudiated orthodoxy when in their mid 40's and regret the chastity of their youth: Why didn't you MARRY a beautiful girl when you were 21 and be happy with her? Sex, but with commitment, responsibility? What a concept, right?

Anonymous said...

I understand that the people with the longest life expectancy are Catholic nuns. So chasity and celibacy have something to do with health and longevity.

And studies show that homosexual have a considerbly shorter life expectancy, largly due to AIDS and other disease that their lifestyle spreads.

jewish philosopher said...

"why have you made no comment about the recent Flotilla massacre?"

It doesn't fit in too much with the topic of this blog: to promote Orthodox Judaism and to critique other ideologies, in particular atheism: promoting truth and real happiness; fighting lies and harmful addictions.

I have mentioned that when creating Israel, the UN seemed to have designed it to be a death trap for Jews rather than a refuge.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/10/israel-holocaust-20.html

Only as long as America continues to support Israel's occupation of all Palestine, which of course is illegal under international law, will Israel survive. How long that will be is anyone's guess.

Israel my home said...

"Only as long as America continues to support Israel's occupation of all Palestine, which of course is illegal under international law, will Israel survive. How long that will be is anyone's guess."

Puleeze! Would you rather the Brits or those bloodthirsty Turks ruling our land? Israel is far from perfect but thank G-d they are much better than the previous two rulerships. G-d gave us this excellent opportunity to move to the Holyland virtually pain free, something our great grandparents yearned for all their lives and we should not pass this up. btw i'm not a "Tzioni"

jewish philosopher said...

However the occupation is still illegal under international law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_242

and if not for American support Israel would probably be entirely obliterated. How long that support continues depends a lot on American politics.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/06/29/tectonic-shift-in-jewish-americans-opinion-of-obama/

erstwhile orthodox said...

"For all I know, you're 14 years old and making this up."
And for all I know, you're fundmentalist crackpot whose gone off his meds.

"And even if I believe you, what percentage do you think you represent of middle aged people?"
I don't give a shit if you believe me or not. But I do know that I and many of my formerly orthodox friends have satisfying sex lives, some within marriage and some outside. I'd say its about evenly split, 50%/50%.

"On the other hand, there are tens of millions of Americans who were promiscuous and are walking around with chronic diseases, emotional trauma, infertility, kids with no father, etc."
They're not necessarily promiscuous, but not much different than many male chareidim visiting prostitutes during their wife's nida period and then infecting her. Its a problem in all environments.

"I think you'll find that very few parents go around thinking to themselves "I really hope my kids in their youth have plenty of sex with a lot of random people." especially if they have daughters."
They do not. They instruct their daughters not to engage in sex before they are emotionaly mature and definitely not under the age of consent which is 18. Only the most hidebound fundamentalist orthodox desire to keep their daughters cloistered, with the resulting disfunctional and lousy marriages. Just look at yours!

jewish philosopher said...

Reading between the lines, what you seem to be saying is that you're a middle aged guy who is too selfish to marry and support a family. As you slide into a lonely and probably alcoholic old age, you console yourself that married people are miserable and probably unfaithful anyway.

As I mentioned above, I'm not advocating celibacy. I'm saying - be responsible, stop the whoring, stop the porn, keep sex in marriage only.

Shalmo said...

"Puleeze! Would you rather the Brits or those bloodthirsty Turks ruling our land? Israel is far from perfect but thank G-d they are much better than the previous two rulerships. G-d gave us this excellent opportunity to move to the Holyland virtually pain free, something our great grandparents yearned for all their lives and we should not pass this up. btw i'm not a "Tzioni""

This is bullshit. The only reason the Brits and rest of the Europeans created Israel (stealing it from indigenous arabs to begin with) was because they wanted to get rid of their jewish population and Israel was the quickest solution.

And what has resulted from it? The same that results from all acts of colonialism, genocide!

I find it hilarious we are told constantly about how Israel is the middle-east's only democracy, blah blah blah. Israel quite literally functions as an ashkenazi supremist state; forbidding marriages between jews and gentiles, ethnically cleansing arabs, sponsoring sterilization programs to nillify the birth-rate of sephadic jews, arabs and even ethiopian jews.

Learn well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8AeUa_CZS4

Anonymous said...

"However the occupation is still illegal under international law"

Who cares? Even if this is true, the laws set up by a bunch of antisemitic gentiles has little bearing on the propriety, or lack thereof, of Jews living in Israel.

The state has been established, so the theological arguments against Zionism fall aside in the face of the necessity for Jews to defend themselves.

There is absolutely no basis to believe that simply giving Israel away to the gentiles will result in greater safety to Jews. The recent conceding of Gaza to the Palestinians, with it's resultant takeover by Hamas, is a model for what would happen if they were given their own state.

jewish philosopher said...

It just means that should the US ever withdraw it's protective shield Israel would probably by internationally ostracized, and therefore destroyed. On the other hand, compliance with international law will also mean israel's destruction.

Basically, rather than being a refuge for Jews, Israel seems to have been designed as a death trap.

Anonymous said...

"It just means that should the US ever withdraw it's protective shield Israel would probably by internationally ostracized, and therefore destroyed."

It may be the case that Israel would be destroyed as a result. The reality is that, like everything else, they/we will ultimately will have to rely on Hashem. Whether or not Hashem will afford Israel its protection in such a miraculous fashion is far from clear, although certain idealogues will maintain that no such protection will be forthcoming , due to the violation of the famous "oaths." My view, however, are that their are (spiritually speaking) mitigating circumstances, and that the long term future of the state is far from clear.

Davidf15x said...

Good grief, Shalmo. These are indeed troubling times. I followed your link and it is a mindless video from noted racist and antisemite David Duke. And what is Duke saying in this crazed video--that the Jews are "racist." And why are Jews racist--because they tend to marry only other Jews. Huh? How does this make Jews racist? If David Duke is something less than a blithering moron, there is no truth, no right and wrong. He is pond scum and a true ignoramus--this cannot be opinion--just watch the video. Duke must be running for putz of the year--OK--he wins.

He breaks the "story" that--drum roll--the Jewish people are a people and not just a religion. Uh, duh. And he says this in some kind of warped back-door rationale to excuse his own personal bigotry.

The understanding that the Jews are a distinct people tied to an event that happened about 3500 years ago--and these people have survived, unlike many other ancient people without a land mass the size of India or China--as a distinct people is an accomplishment and points to the power of the revelation, the covenant at Sinai. Yes, the Jews have a land, it is called Israel. Obvious stuff.

Why not blast Chinese people for being Chinese--why be Chinese? Why not intermarry--what is wrong with the "racist" Chinese? Well--they are intermarrying--not at the rate of Jews but they are intermarrying. Hardly a big deal--there are about a billion Chinese, alas, some intermarriage will never eliminate the Chinese people and no one is planning on destroying the massive nation of China.

Jews are struggling for survival in their tiny state. Antisemites like David Duke happily wish to see those Jews eliminated--and why? Tragically, the Jewish people are doing Hitler's work by marrying out and reducing the number of Jews every day. It would be tragic since the Jews have a meaningful distinction as a unique people. So I ask, you Shalmo--what is the merit in being a Caucasian? Moses married a black woman--Israel is about the most racially integrated and diverse country on earth. Yes, Golda was correct--that there is no Arab Palestinian people because there is no distint Arab people called "Palestinians." It was an invention from the 1970's. Curious, when a group of regular Arabs WANTS to somehow distinguish themselves--that is not racist--but when a truly historic people with very distinct language, customs, background and destiny--simply identifies as Jews--that is "racist." Is this a joke?

How can you possibly follow someone as ignorant as David Duke? These are truly frightening times.

Israel my home said...

"This is bullshit. The only reason the Brits and rest of the Europeans created Israel (stealing it from indigenous arabs to begin with) was because they wanted to get rid of their jewish population and Israel was the quickest solution."

The only one with the "bullshit" is you my muslim fiend (not a typo). The Europeans for the most part (aside from a few select countries) tried and failed to get rid of the Jews (hint: it was called the Holocaust)

"And what has resulted from it? The same that results from all acts of colonialism, genocide"

Haha, You have obviously never been to Israel (if you do ever come, please don't try to blow yourself up for some virgins) and most likely get your "news" from press tv or something. Come to Israel,(again i must implore you to resist temptation and DON'T try to blow yourself up!) check it out yourself and see. I'm looking forward to your report on the "ethnic cleansing and genocide of the arabs.

"I find it hilarious we are told constantly about how Israel is the middle-east's only democracy, blah blah blah. Israel quite literally functions as an ashkenazi supremist state; forbidding marriages between jews and gentiles, ethnically cleansing arabs, sponsoring sterilization programs to nillify the birth-rate of sephadic jews, arabs and even ethiopian jew"

See previous response.

"Learn well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8AeUa_CZS4"

Ahhh a muslim quoting a nazi, such great unity between you guys it seems. Of course who could forget that your great leader, the mufti of Jerusalem was in cahoots with shitler on how to rid of this "Jewish problem" so no surprises there. Hmmm makes one wonder where the term "islamo-nazi" came from...

You muslims have 47 countries, can't you just be happy and leave us the hell alone in our tiny country? Mecca is your holy city, Jewrusalem is ours.


btw i assume your name "Shalmo" comes from the Jewish name Shlomo, the great king of Eretz Yisrael who ruled from 971 - 931 BCE (around a thousand years before your religion was even dreamed of). Why not at least change it to mohammed or fatima or achmadigbarfbag or something?

Israel my home said...

Excellent post David.

@ Shalomo

" This is bullshit. The only reason the Brits and rest of the Europeans created Israel (stealing it from indigenous arabs to begin with) was because they wanted to get rid of their jewish population and Israel was the quickest solution."

Europeans already tried and failed to rid of the Jews
(something called the Holocaust)

"And what has resulted from it? The same that results from all acts of colonialism, genocide!"
"I find it hilarious we are told constantly about how Israel is the middle-east's only democracy, blah blah blah. Israel quite literally functions as an ashkenazi supremist state; forbidding marriages between jews and gentiles, ethnically cleansing arabs, sponsoring sterilization programs to nillify the birth-rate of sephadic jews, arabs and even ethiopian jews. "

Come to Israel and see judge for yourself. Stop relying on Press TV. "genocide and ethnic cleansing" are all lies.

It's quite ironic that you bring a link to the nazi David Duke. I'm not surprised though, muslims and nazis have always found common ground in their hate of the Jews. Your 'great' mufti leader Mohammad Amin al-Husayni met with shitler himself so they could scheme up ways to get rid of the "Jewish problem" together. Makes me wonder where the term "islamo-nazi" came from...

btw i'm assuming your name originally comes from the Jewish king called Shlomo who ruled Eretz Yisrael c. 971 - 931 BCE. (around a thousand years before your religion was dreamed of). Why is that?

davidf15x said...

That would be 1500 years, 'Israel my Home'--I kept most of my powder dry for the David Duke fan but he wants to smear and run away and this is the way for these people.

One of the highlights of the "intelligence" on display from this dope cam when Duke took an image of the Kohanim at the Western Wall and then superimposed black circles on their eyes--an attempt by a KKK grand master to paint a Jew as a moral equal to a KKK member. Now THAT makes a lot of sense doesn't it--as if a KKK meeting is the moral equivalent to the priestly blessing. Duke falls over his own incoherence so quickly I can't even imagine the point.

Joseph said...

Only as long as America continues to support Israel's occupation of all Palestine, which of course is illegal under international law, will Israel survive.

Why? What is international law? As far as I can tell it's usually regarded as the will of the notoriously corrupt UN. Why should we care about that?

jewish philosopher said...

Why should we care about American law or any law? If Israel violates international law it could be subject to sanctions of various types, war crime trials, etc.