Wednesday, May 05, 2010

What Would It Take to Convince a Skeptic?


[Trailer for Evan Almighty]

I recently watched at the gym a little segment of the movie "Evan Almighty", which features an American Congressman who is told by God to build an ark.

What I thought was interesting was how during the first segment of the movie, newly elected Congressman Evan Baxter is constantly experiencing obviously supernatural events, yet he continues to deny that anything supernatural could be happening. He witnesses before his eyes bizarre, naturally unexplainable occurrences yet for a long time ignores them.

Of course, the movie is merely a silly comedy, however it reminded me of many discussions I have had with skeptics and atheists.

I have demonstrated the truth of Judaism, first, from the Watchmaker Principle and what I call the Anti-conspiracy Principle. Then from the unique structure of Jewish literature. I have pointed out the unique wisdom of the Torah and the Torah's remarkable candor.

Regarding questions from science, I have found plausible solutions [1] [2] [3]. Furthermore, I have debunked the Documentary Hypothesis and evolution.

Atheists simply respond with a barrage of logical fallacies, all merely to rationalize a debauched lifestyle, which will end badly.

God is constantly calling to all the "Evans" out there. How many will listen?

158 comments:

Anonymous said...

Sigh.

Watchmaker and Kuzari are completely unconvincing next to biological sciences and historical evidence, which all demolish supernatural arguments. There's no evidence for supernatural occurrences outside of silly comedies--in real life, they don't happen.

Jewish religion and literature is not so unique. It has non-Jewish predecessors and contemporaneous analogues for most everything about it.

What you've done is not demonstrate the truth of Judaism but rather rationalize the bunk of its claims.

Like all religions, Judaism is unnecessary. It's not needed for morality or for a good life. I know you have your pet reports and interpretations. Cherry-picking is not proof.

Work on converting other religious folks. Atheism is winning because when people look objectively at all the facts they realize that no theism is true or useful.

The difference is that you seem to care whether "we" listen to "God." But we don't care whether you become an atheist or not. You feel threatened by us, but we don't feel threatened by you. We just think your beliefs are foolish and self-limiting, and we're not afraid to explain why.

Rock on, my brother.

JSM

jewish philosopher said...

"There's no evidence for supernatural occurrences outside of silly comedies--in real life, they don't happen."

What event would you accept as supernatural? Couldn't anything be dismissed as "natural but not yet understood"?

"It has non-Jewish predecessors and contemporaneous analogues for most everything about it."

Evidence please?

"Like all religions, Judaism is unnecessary. It's not needed for morality or for a good life."

Atheism is the world's most dangerous religion. If all humanity were to convert to atheism tomorrow, one half would kill the other half, the survivors would not have kids and that would be that. No atheist community has been free of massive killing and also reproduced at a replacement level.

"Atheism is winning"

At least in europe atheism is destroying while Islam is winning.

jewish philosopher said...

Incidentally, if anyone has got one reasonably convincing proof that God does not exist and/or that evolution created us, I'm all ears.

Anonymous said...

"What event would you accept as supernatural?"

You tell me. In your OP, you mention "obviously supernatural events." Please explain what events I should accept as obviously supernatural and why.

"Atheism is the world's most dangerous religion. If all humanity were to convert to atheism tomorrow, one half would kill the other half, the survivors would not have kids and that would be that. No atheist community has been free of massive killing and also reproduced at a replacement level."

This is a tired old falsehood that doesn't cast religion in a good light. But trying to define atheism as a religion seems to me like trying to call a triangle four-sided.

"Incidentally, if anyone has got one reasonably convincing proof that God does not exist and/or that evolution created us, I'm all ears."

You seem to be equivocating on terms like "convincing," "proof," "evolution" and "crate." Nevertheless, the real questions is whether anyone has reasonably convincing proof that God exists or that people are not a result of evolutionary processes.

The other big question is why atheism is such a big deal to you. Why don't you just practice your brand of Orthodox Judaism and leave it at that?

Are you considering atheism?

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>I have demonstrated the truth of Judaism, first, from the Watchmaker Principle and what I call the Anti-conspiracy Principle. Then from the unique structure of Jewish literature. I have pointed out the unique wisdom of the Torah and the Torah's remarkable candor.<<<

You have demonstrated nothing of the sort except a talent for substituting septic inferences for scientific evidence.

>>>Incidentally, if anyone has got one reasonably convincing proof that God does not exist and/or that evolution created us, I'm all ears.<<<

That's easy. Its as simple as proving leprechauns don't exist.

http://godisimaginary.com/i17.htm
...Now let's imagine that we have a conversation one day and I say to you, "I believe in Leprechauns. You cannot prove that Leprechauns do not exist, therefore they exist." You actually have heard of Leprechauns. There are lots of books, movies and fairy tales dealing with Leprechauns. People talk about Leprechauns all the time. Leprechauns even have a popular brand of breakfast cereal. But that does not mean that Leprechauns exist. There is no physical evidence for the existence of Leprechauns. Not a single bit. Therefore, it is obvious to any normal person that Leprechauns are imaginary....

....If you would like to hypothesize that God exists, then you should say to yourself, "Let's devise a repeatable scientific experiment to provide evidence that God exists." Every experiment we devise demonstrates, yet again, that God is imaginary...

jewish philosopher said...

"Please explain what events I should accept as obviously supernatural and why."

The splitting of the Red Sea, for example.

"This is a tired old falsehood"

Falsify it.

"But trying to define atheism as a religion seems to me like trying to call a triangle four-sided."

So what is it?

" the real questions is whether anyone has reasonably convincing proof that God exists or that people are not a result of evolutionary processes."

I do. Click on the links in this post.

jewish philosopher said...

"The other big question is why atheism is such a big deal to you. Why don't you just practice your brand of Orthodox Judaism and leave it at that?"

All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

jewish philosopher said...

"....If you would like to hypothesize that God exists, then you should say to yourself, "Let's devise a repeatable scientific experiment to provide evidence that God exists." Every experiment we devise demonstrates, yet again, that God is imaginary..."

I could just as well say:

....If you would like to hypothesize that Aristotle existed, then you should say to yourself, "Let's devise a repeatable scientific experiment to provide evidence that Aristotle existed." Every experiment we devise demonstrates, yet again, that Aristotle is imaginary...

Anonymous said...

Except that with Aristotle, we at least can verify the existence of people. So we start off know that there are in fact a class of being to which Aristotle would belong.

Can we verify the existence of other gods?

jewish philosopher said...

People. We are made in God's image. We are also intelligent beings with free will.

Anonymous said...

Made in God's image? According to one very old book. Do you believe all the old books?

And free will is likely an illusion.

But as a religious person, you don't really believe in free will.

jewish philosopher said...

I don't see why God's uniqueness is a problem to begin with. Everything is to some degree unique, even identical twins.

Anonymous said...

So you think God is only "to some degree unique"?

Gobbie said...

"What event would you accept as supernatural? "

Any miracle described in the Bible, if it would happen now. A talking ass. Rod turning into a serpent. The sun stopping in its tracks (or actually the earth stopping). Go ahead, show me that there has been a miracle in modern times.

gobbie said...

Kuzari argument debunked: argument by special pleading (exception from other religious myths)

Watchmaker argument debunked: argument by analogy, not considered evidence.

Anonymous said...

Pray for me to receive $25 million dollars tomorrow in cash. If it happens, I'll believe.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
"....If you would like to hypothesize that God exists, then you should say to yourself, "Let's devise a repeatable scientific experiment to provide evidence that God exists." Every experiment we devise demonstrates, yet again, that God is imaginary..."

I could just as well say:

>>>....If you would like to hypothesize that Aristotle existed, then you should say to yourself, "Let's devise a repeatable scientific experiment to provide evidence that Aristotle existed." Every experiment we devise demonstrates, yet again, that Aristotle is imaginary...<<<

Except that rules of evidence applied by modern scientific and historic scrutiny can verify aristotles existence. Those rules of evidence cannot prove god's existence. If given a choice between modern evidenitary applications and chareidi fundamentalist perversions of logic, the correct judgement is clear. Aristotle existed but god's presence is as unproveable as a leprechaun's.

Alex said...

Abe writes: "That's easy. Its as simple as proving leprechauns don't exist."

Dennis Prager, whose religious opinions I could take or leave, demolished Sam Harris when Harris tried this same tack. (Though Harris tried the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I think.)

jewish philosopher said...

"So you think God is only "to some degree unique"?"

Man is a physical intelligent being, God is a transcendent intelligent being. We know man exists, so why not God?

"Any miracle described in the Bible, if it would happen now."

OK.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/15/nyregion/miracle-dream-prank-fish-talks-town-buzzes.html

"Kuzari argument debunked"

I explain it a little differently which I think resolves any problems.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

"Watchmaker argument debunked: argument by analogy, not considered evidence."

That's nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

"Except that rules of evidence applied by modern scientific and historic scrutiny can verify aristotles existence. Those rules of evidence cannot prove god's existence."

Sure they can.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-history-bunk.html

Anonymous said...

"Man is a physical intelligent being, God is a transcendent intelligent being. We know man exists, so why not God?"

There's your bumper sticker: "God: Why the hell not?"

We know some animals have several arms, so why not some of he Hind gods? We have a platypus, which is like a mammal and a duck, so why can't the Egyptian man-dog gods exist? We know that the number 5 exists, why can the universe not be ruled a super-powerful, transcendent 5?


AAAAAAAAAAAAH! It's all possible! It must be sooooooooooo.

jewish philosopher said...

I just don't see the logic behind saying "God is supposedly unique, therefore He can't exist."

Anonymous said...

That's not my logic. I'm criticizing your logic that because people exists God must exist.

Aristotle could have possibly existed because people do exist.

We cannot say that God possibly exists because transcendent intelligent beings exist. We don't know any transcendent intelligent beings. So we can't use the same logic for God as we do for Aristotle.

jewish philosopher said...

We say that God exists because life, like any machine, must have an intelligent designer, and because the only recorded public revelation of an intelligent designer, which would have been impossible to fake, was at Mt Sinai. Therefore we know that the Biblical God exists.

Anonymous said...

If you believe in science then you believe in a universe magically coming out of nowhere, a universe that somehow magically adjusted itself to accomodate life or else there are multiple universes whre unicirns and leprechauns exist, magic soup turning into life, bacteria turning into blue whales through the magic of evolution, the brain tunring into the mind though the magic of emergent properties, and human morality tha can make people do things that are completely unDarwinian, e.g. Mother Theresa devoting her life to the poor of Calcutta instead of reproducing, through the magic of...social evolution? The magic we have to accept if we accept science makes the splitting of the Red Sea easy.

Abe said...

"Except that rules of evidence applied by modern scientific and historic scrutiny can verify aristotles existence. Those rules of evidence cannot prove god's existence."
jewish philosopher said...
>>>Sure they can.<<<
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-history-bunk.html


No, they can't.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/schick_21_1.html
"...Does that mean that one cannot prove that he (god) does not exist? No, for in order to prove that something does not exist, one need not show that it is logically impossible. One need only show is that it is epistemically unnecessary-that it is not required to explain anything. Science has proven the non-existence of many things in this way, such as phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan. Scientific proofs, unlike logical proofs, do not establish their conclusions beyond any possibility of doubt. But they are proofs nonetheless, for they establish their conclusions beyond a reasonable doubt and that is all that is needed to justify them...."
That is how science disproves the necessity god's of god's existence. He's just immaterial and unneccesary, easily discarded as an artifact of a supersitious age. Better to engage in some internet porn, at least that won't come back to threaten your life.

Anonymous said...

I fogot to mention subatomic particle that can read minds, and dark matter, adn dark energy.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>We say that God exists because life, like any machine, must have an intelligent designer, and because the only recorded public revelation of an intelligent designer, which would have been impossible to fake, was at Mt Sinai. Therefore we know that the Biblical God exists.<<<

He exists as surely as there is a santa claus, Virgina.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/schick_21_1.html
...God is a theoretical entity that is postulated by theists to explain various phenomena, such as the origin of the universe, the design of the universe, and the origin of living things. Modern science, however, can explain all of these phenomena without postulating the existence of God.1 In the words of Laplace, science has no need of that hypothesis.2 By demonstrating that God is not needed to explain anything, science has proven that there is no more reason to believe in the existence of God than to believe in the existence of phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, or Vulcan. This may explain why more than 90% of the world's top scientists disbelieve or doubt the existence of God.3 ..."

Gobbert said...

God and revelation is neither provable or disprovable, which makes for a bad explanation.

But, for a moment, let's imagine that they are true. Let's imagine that that God revealed himself to the ancient Hebrews 3500 years ago, performed many miracles, and gave them laws.

The decision as to how to live NOW comes down to philosophy. Since God stopped talking to us, stopped intervening in a direct and understandable way, why not add this "revelation" to the thousands of events in ancient history, that although interesting, have no bearing or moral imperative on our lives today?

The God of old seems to have receded into history, so why bother being obsessed with what he supposedly said thousands of years ago?

Just as Jesus or Muhammad's sayings and acts have no bearing on you today, why bother with the Torah?

Since exhortations to listen to god's word have never worked anyway, it appears to be a failed method.

Anonymous said...

JSM:

While religion may not absolutly necessary to live a good life, it certainly helps. Just look at the statistics. And it seems to be the only way for some people, such as alcoholics.

And if atheists don't feel threatened by theists, why are so many atheists militantly figjting theism? Why did the Soviet Union, Communists China and all the other atheist societies feel the need to kill so many theists?

jewish philosopher said...

"That is how science disproves the necessity god's of god's existence. He's just immaterial and unneccesary"

Then give a detailed, plausible atheistic explanation for the origin of the universe, life and Judaism.

"why not add this "revelation" to the thousands of events in ancient history, that although interesting, have no bearing or moral imperative on our lives today?"

Because if we don't listen to God we will burn in hell forever.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/jewish-heretics.html

gobbert said...

"Because if we don't listen to God we will burn in hell forever"

JP, we know you like to make provocative statements, thats what keeps the comments going.

But, honestly, do you think of that as a convincing argument? It requires that that you believe all of the following:

1. That there is life after death
2. That there is a hell
3. That Judasim really believes in hell
4. That God would send you there for the sin of not believing in him.
5. That we know what god wants NOW and therefore not doing these things will make him send us to hell.

The only reason for someone to believe in those things is that a rabbi 2000 years ago (and a few present day kook rabbis) said them.

Not very compelling, to say the least...

Can you come up with a better MORALLY COMPELLING reason to listen to what a diety supposedly said 3500 years ago?

jewish philosopher said...

As I have pointed out, again and again, I believe that the evidence for the divine origin of the Torah is very compelling (see this post), including the Talmudic tradition, see

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/03/jewish-literature-seeing-effects-of.html

According to the Talmud, apostates from Orthodox Judaism will burn in hell forever.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/jewish-heretics.html

Is it worthwhile to rest on the Sabbath, to keep kosher and pray three times a day in order to avoid burning eternally? I would say, yeah.

Anonymous said...

"Is it worthwhile to rest on the Sabbath, to keep kosher and pray three times a day."

Yes, but no go needed. Just rest. It's a good idea. Watch your diet: also a good idea. Take time every day to reflect or meditate.

All good stuff. Do it without a thought of God or the abject fear of eternal torment.

jewish philosopher said...

"Do it without a thought of God"

Because only you are important and everything has to be about you? And when you get older, how will you find happiness? Alcohol?

Anonymous said...

"Because only you are important and everything has to be about you? And when you get older, how will you find happiness? Alcohol?"

I never said or implied that "it's all about me." I'm just saying it's not about God and does not need to be at all. I'm old enough, thank you, but as I get older I hope to continue finding happiness in my family, friends, work, and hobbies. Life really is not so complicated.

jewish philosopher said...

Without God, there is no real happiness as I have proven.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/04/real-happiness.html

And if you are going to cite your own life as disproving this fact, then please explain how exactly I can verify that. After all, for all I know you may using a computer in the library of a psychiatric hospital.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>According to the Talmud, apostates from Orthodox Judaism will burn in hell forever.

Is it worthwhile to rest on the Sabbath, to keep kosher and pray three times a day in order to avoid burning eternally? I would say, yeah.<<<
According to the Talmud, we should blame demons for inspiring your fear of hell.
But, why worry about hell, when the demons torturing your brain are right here on earth?
Try this remedy to eradicate those awful demons torturing your brain.
Perhaps you'll get over obsessions with god and hell after you've eliminated those pesky demons. The Talmud can't be wrong!

http://www.oldinthenew.org/?p=335

Babylonian Talmud, tractate Berakhoth 6a:
...If one wishes to see them (demons), let him take the after-birth of a black she-cat, the offspring of a black she-cat, the first-born of a first-born, let him roast it in fire and grind it to powder, and then let him put some into his eye, and he will see them....
Just make sure you remove your contact lenses first. The demons might not appreciate a chatzitza.

Anonymous said...

"Without God, there is no real happiness as I have proven."

I read your essay and did not come away thinking you had proved your assertions.

You also seem to advocate using God as a placebo. "He may not exist in fact," you seem to be saying "but pretend he does and everything will be cool." If you want to be persuasive, you would need to answer the question why God is the answer for and source to real happiness. You would have to show in detail how God-happiness works. You advice uttering a prayer to God. OK, then how EXACTLY does doing that lead to happiness? Does God strike you with a happiness bolt? Does a gland in the brain release special hormones only through the power of the word "God"?

Please, do explain.

Nothing I said before about family, friends, work, and hobbies is inconsistent with achieving the lasting, real happiness you describe. Millions of good people around the world are proof of this.

I note at the end of the "real happiness" essay that you admit to not being very happy yourself. But I do wish you success as you continue working for it.

jewish philosopher said...

"The Talmud can't be wrong!"

But it can be allegorical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggadah#Literal-allegorical_teachings

"Millions of good people around the world are proof of this."

Then why are so many millions addicted to food, shopping, drugs, porn, sex, alcohol, etc?

http://addictions.about.com/

Rehab seems to be a major industry.

http://www.recoveryconnection.org/

This is much less common in the Orthodox Jewish community.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

jewish philosopher said...

In any case, happy or not, someone who rejects God in this world will, according to the Talmud, be in for a very hot and eternal barbecue after death.

Anonymous said...

"according to the Talmud."

Who cares what centuries-dead rabbis have to say about eternity? I mean, really, can you seriously consider that these people held any sort of special insight into an alternate dimension of reality that people today cannot have?

jewish philosopher said...

Sure. The Talmud, as part of Jewish tradition, is essential to understanding God's Torah.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/03/jewish-literature-seeing-effects-of.html

Who do you think would have any sort of special insight into an alternate dimension of reality?

Perhaps today's great scientists?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/02/portrait-of-professor.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-scientists-are-really-doing.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/09/portrait-of-scientist.html

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
"The Talmud can't be wrong!"

>>>But it can be allegorical.<<<
Only when taking it literaly would be an admission of dissolute stupidity. So every time the talmud makes a dumb remark by modern standards, just say its allegorical. Yeah, those demons are just allegorical --- just like belief in god and hell.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>Without God, there is no real happiness as I have proven.

And if you are going to cite your own life as disproving this fact, then please explain how exactly I can verify that. After all, for all I know you may using a computer in the library of a psychiatric hospital.<<<

I would think twice about revealing your identity to Mr. Stein. On a few occaisions he has boasted of his desire to kill all atheists, homosexuals and a few strident heretics. He just might show up on your doorstep with a loaded 45, screaming that he is on a mission from god.
But what else would you expect from a guy who abandons and forsakes his loving adoptive parents in favor of a deluded belief that god charged him to do so. Sure sounds like schizophrenic symptoms to me.
You'd be wise never to reveal your identity to Mr. Stein, unless you would like to do some pro bono work as his psychiatrist.

jewish philosopher said...

"just like belief in god and hell"

Hell is very literal Abe, as I hope you soon find out.

"I would think twice about revealing your identity to Mr. Stein."

I would think twice before slandering people, but I guess slimy mental inchworms like you don't. Why don't you invest a few bucks and check my criminal record? I'd love to check yours.

"forsakes his loving adoptive parents"

Now you're a psychic and know how my adoptive parents felt. Impressive.

"You'd be wise never to reveal your identity"

Actually, all atheists would be wise never to reveal their identities, because they are always so evil. I have only found one documented case of a decent atheist, and he, understandably, regretted having been one.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/01/chandra-good-atheist.html

Anonymous said...

The Rabbis of theTlamud did seem to have a great deal of insight into how people could live good lives. I don't think any one else even came close.

Joebaum said...

Abe.
What you are writing is malicious.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand how someone who believes in the muliverse, dark matter, or subatomic particles that can read your mind can have a problem with people believing in demons.

Abe said...

Joebaum said...
Abe.
<<>>
Well, I can't help it if the truth about Mr. Stein resonates with abhorence for his debased impulses . He is what he is.

jewish philosopher said...

And no doubt you have good reasons to conceal what you are.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...
>>>I don't understand how someone who believes in the muliverse, dark matter, or subatomic particles that can read your mind can have a problem with people believing in demons.<<<

Science has proven the existence of subatomic particles beyond doubt.
Multiverse and dark matter is speculation based on scientific observation. Future experimentation may prove or dispprove their existence
What scientific observation would you lead to believe that demons exist? And if they do, why havn't those talmudic formulas been able to conjure them up?
What's the matter? -- Can't find the afterbirth of a black she-cat?

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>And no doubt you have good reasons to conceal what you are.<<<

From you, indeed I do, although I my atheism is known to all of my friends and family.
I just don't want you showing up on my doorstep with a loaded 45 threatening to dispatch me to hell. I really don't want to share your misery.

Anonymous said...

I think JP is actually a repressed atheist.

Anonymous said...

I would be convinced if the creation claims could be substantiated.

For example, in your essay on Genesis you say, "When the Torah states, for example, (Genesis 1:11) that plants were created on the third day, that means basically two things: the first time plants appeared on earth was a Tuesday and also each Tuesday, even this week, plants are being renewed by spiritual emanations from God (as it says in the literal translation of Psalms 136:7 'To Him making great lights' in the present tense; God is even now energizing them)."

Assuming these spiritual emanations are something other than sunlight, which in my experience can come any day of the week, please point me to a scientific article that shows the special spiritual emanations that renew the plants of the world every Tuesday.

Hmm. Maybe you'll try to weasel out of this by saying that after the Fall, Tuesdays became not so special. But this would contradict what you say explicitly above, and it would put you in a position of having to explain how you knew about the pre-Fall "spiritual emanations" in the first place.

If you cannot scientifically substantiate the special plant-spiritual nature of Tuesday, will you admit that at least this part of your explanation is bullshit?

Here's a deal: if you were to admit that your explanation is bogus, I think that might convince this skeptic.

jewish philosopher said...

If the Torah is indeed authentic, as I prove in this post, then there is no reason to doubt the torah's creation story.

Anonymous said...

Abe:

What science is having trouble explaining is how subatomic particles can read our minds. And the gravitational snomalies in the rotations of galaxies which can't be readily explained have led scientists to suggest the existance of stange types of matter that can't be scene, but we know must exist. Y'know that is kind of what demons actually are. So why are demons so strange?

If mutliverse is true, then there are universes out there where demons really do exist. And how woudl you disprove multiverse anyway?

Anonymous said...

Prove the flood.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/flood357903.shtml

Anonymous said...

Y'know Abe, now that I think about it, it occured to me that there is more evidence for demons in the Talmud than there is for multiverse. No one has ever actually seen the multiverse, but thousands of people have claimed to see demons. They now call them ghosts. Of course, they may all be delusional, but no one has ever even claimed to see a multiverse. Yet multiverse is a perfectly valid scientific explanation for the fine tuning of thte universe. And it is just as magical as anything in the Talmud, or in fairy tales.

jewish philosopher said...

I don't see a problem with the flood.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/10/biblical-deluge.html

I think you are merely begging the question:

The Deluge could not have happened, because it involves miracles. Miracles cannot happen because there is no God. We know there is no God because the Bible is wrong. We know the Bible is wrong because it mentions the Deluge and we know the Deluge didn’t happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

In other words, based on the premise that God does not exist you prove God does not exist.

Anonymous said...

I'm not begging the question at all. You did not read (or maybe you did not understand) the article; otherwise, you would not retreat into a false begging-the-question accusation.

I don't understand the red herring to the multiverse. It's a hypothesis, a guess. It's not a theory and no one gives it that status. There is, however, some mathematical justification for it. So, there's an objective reason to keep the multiverse question on the table. What, may I ask, is the objective basis for demons/ghosts?

Anonymous said...

I did a little research over Shabbos. It seems that there is a Machlokes about demons in the Gemora. And the Rambam may be paskening like those who don't old from demons. So the rationalists among us can paskin like the Rambam.

jewish philosopher said...

"I'm not begging the question at all."

it's a common atheistic error to prove that God doesn't exist using an argument which assumes that God doesn't exist.

Anonymous said...

That may be a common error, but not in my case. I make no prior assumption that God doesn't exist.

You seem to assume that God does exist. Your challenge is to demonstrate that God does exist without already assuming that He does.

So, if you open up your Torah as if for the very first time and NOT assuming that its contents are true or false, how do you start to verify what actually happened? How do you separate what should be understood literally and what should be taken figuratively?

It seems to me that you cannot do any of this without the counsel of an outside source. You need 'nach, or Talmud, or the Christian interpretations, or the Islamic ones. So now you rely on these outside authorities, but what makes the authorities authoritative?

What's more, your anti-science bias brings your own criticism of atheists back on yourself. You assume that evolution is incorrect and you try to prove it by saying evolution is incorrect. Except that evolution is a scientific fact.

Enjoy your Judaism if it does something for you. It's you as you want to be seen and as you see yourself. Some people need religion and I don't begrudge them that. But your six-pointed star peg of Judaism simply does not fit into the round hole of reality. Either accept this fact or ignore it. The choice is yours. It's not God's choice and never was. And I think you already know this.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 8:01:

My point about the multiverse is that it just as magical as demons/ghosts, leprechauns, unicorns, etc. etc. Yet it is stil considered a perfectly valid scientific explanation. Same thing with dark matter. I don't understand how anyone who accepts multiverse or dark matter can reject demons. Maybe the demons are made of dark matter. Or maybe they live in another universe. If multiverse is true then there has to be another universe where demons do exist. So if you believe in multiverse you have to believe in demons.

jewish philosopher said...

"Your challenge is to demonstrate that God does exist without already assuming that He does."

Which I do.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

"Except that evolution is a scientific fact."

Prove it.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...
>>>Y'know Abe, now that I think about it, it occured to me that there is more evidence for demons in the Talmud than there is for multiverse. No one has ever actually seen the multiverse, but thousands of people have claimed to see demons. They now call them ghosts. Of course, they may all be delusional, but no one has ever even claimed to see a multiverse. Yet multiverse is a perfectly valid scientific explanation for the fine tuning of thte universe. And it is just as magical as anything in the Talmud, or in fairy tales.<<<
A multiverse may or may not exist. Right now its just a speculation that attempts to render an explaination for the existence of the universe. Until experiments prove a multiverse theory, its just conjecture.
OTOH, the Talmud offers a very detailed process by which you can conjure up a demon. As I've said before, what scientific observation would you lead to believe that demons exist? And if they do, why havn't those talmudic formulas been able to conjure them up?
What's the matter? -- Can't find the afterbirth of a black she-cat?

Gobbie said...

JP, why not try to bring something new into the debate, rather than your worn out "anti-conspiracy principle" and the "watchmaker analogy", neither of which seem to convince anybody who doesn't already believe.

Since people have been debating faith and religion for millenia, I suspect that this might be difficult. But on the skeptics side, there is a continuous flow of new scientific information, techniques, and insights into human psychology, that support evolution and refute the Bible's claims.

What new information can you bring into the argument, other than recycled philosophical arguments from hundreds of years ago? You've go to do better than a talking fish prank.

As I previously said, we all know that a generic god can not be disproven (or proven). OK, we're past that. What we want is compelling new evidence that the biblical narrative of God is true and that he still exists and cares what we do. In a best case scenario, your kuzari and watchmaker "proofs" make an argument that god existed in the past. But perhaps he died, or was killed by another god, or ran off to another universe. If this sounds absurd, consider the fate of all of the other dieties in history. If you argue by special pleading, "hey, my god is different" than you must prove it.

jewish philosopher said...

"JP, why not try to bring something new into the debate, rather than your worn out "anti-conspiracy principle" and the "watchmaker analogy", neither of which seem to convince anybody who doesn't already believe."

Well, that's actually exactly the point of this post. The evidence which I submit in this blog is more than enough to convince any honest, rational, sober person. The atheists who are deeply in denial will not be convinced by anything.

" But perhaps he died, or was killed by another god, or ran off to another universe. If this sounds absurd, consider the fate of all of the other dieties in history. If you argue by special pleading, "hey, my god is different" than you must prove it."

The Torah doesn't include any expiration date.

Anonymous said...

Abe:

Like I said, the existance of Demons is actually a machlokes. The rationalists can paslkin like the Amoraim in the West, and the Rambam.

And have you ever tried the formulas? Until you have, what basis is there for saying that they don't work?

And you find similar formulas in the medical books of the day. This was cutting edge science. If the Rabbis rejected it, you would say they where wrong for questioning the scientific authorities.

There is no evidence at all for multiverse. It is just as magical as demons, yet it is a perfectly valid scientific theory. There is more eyewitness testimony for the existance of ghosts.

Now, the Gemeora's desxcription of the Mazzikin does sound a lot like diease causing protists. They are all over the place, and they cause harm. Maybe the Rabbis of the Talumujd where really onto something.

Anonymous said...

Prove evolution? Read the latest by Dawkins or Jerry Coyne. Outside of the religious, there's no working biologist today who sees any reason not to accept that evolution is a scientific fact. The evidence is there. Read these books. You don't have to take the authors themselves as authorities, but the experiments and the data are conclusive.

In contrast, when you are asked to prove anything at all about God, you have nothing but arguments from authority and circular logic. Not once in your "truth of Judaism" essay do you offer anything like positive evidence. All you have is vague rhetoric, nothing physical.

Anonymous said...

Abe:

The multiverse theory is an attempt to explain why our universe is exqsuitely fine tuned to accomodate life without coming on to "God did it."

And if you believe in multiverse, you have to believe in demons becuase there is a universe out there where demons do exist. Or maybe the demons are made of dark matter.

Now "we hope to have an answer for you someday," is a perfectly acceptable answer for atheists when confronted with the big problems of origins of the universe, origins of life, the human mind, human morality, religions, etc. So I can answer "we hope to have an answer for you someday" on the very small question of demons.

jewish philosopher said...

"Outside of the religious, there's no working biologist today who sees any reason not to accept that evolution is a scientific fact. "

No one really believes in evolution.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/03/climate-change-and-evolution.html

Gobbie said...

"The Torah doesn't include any expiration date."

Neither did any ancient religious text or deity.

jewish philosopher said...

Basically, you're restating the Christian and Muslim doctrines: "oh yes, God did give the torah, but now He cancelled it."

The burden of proof is on them to demonstrate that but of course they can't.

gobbie said...

No, what I am saying applies to Christians and Muslims, too: They had your revelations/miracles/prophecies along time ago. Lets say they're true. Who says it matters now?

The burden of proof is on them/you to show that god is still alive and kicking. Beyond the last days that god spoke to the prophets-- do you have any idea if god is still around or what he wants?

You say the Torah doesn't change. Yet the world changed so completely such that most of the Torah laws are no longer applicable. Since god didn't give us a new Torah to match the new world, it follows that either he disappeared, doesn't care, or never existed in the first place.

On the other hand, Talmudic "rabbinic" Judaism, invented by the rabbis, does change. It depends on no input at all from god (it can't, because there is radio silence from god) . Yet, it pretends to speak about God's will, when in reality, there is no basis to this claim. Last the talmudic rabbis heard from god, was 600 years before the rabbis lived, when god spoke to a completely different world.

jewish philosopher said...

So it's obvious to you that religions have a shelf life, after which they stop being true.

How long is this period? 10 years, 100, 1000? Is Mormonism still fresh?

Are you drunk or high?

Anonymous said...

Why aren't most of the Torah applicable? How has the world changed? We don't have the Beis Hamikdosh, so we don't bring Korbonos. But the rest of the Torah is still applicable. In fact, the world has changed so much for the worse that we need Torah now, more than ever.

jewish philosopher said...

I think this gobbie guy is drunk.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...
>>>Like I said, the existance of Demons is actually a machlokes. The rationalists can paslkin like the Amoraim in the West, and the Rambam.<<<
So demonic existence is dependent on doctrinal resolution? That's like saying sub-atomic particles exist at the whim of this or that scientist with no experimentaion to verify his/her assertion. Lets just paskin that string theory is invalid and voila!, it shall be so. Your religion may work that way, but science wouldn't get very far if it operated in the same meretricious manner.

>>>And have you ever tried the formulas? Until you have, what basis is there for saying that they don't work?<<<
Why should I try the formula? I have much better things to occupy my time than aqcuiring the afterbirth of a black she-cat. However this is the perfect opportunity for you to demonstrate the veracity of Torah/Talmud/Gedolim etc. etc.
Why don't you test the formula and produce a few real demons for us. And while your at it, you might also invoke the spell from Macbeth -- Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble --. Who knows, you might even resurrect Rav Schneerson?

>>>And you find similar formulas in the medical books of the day. This was cutting edge science. If the Rabbis rejected it, you would say they where wrong for questioning the scientific authorities.<<<
Well, we should be gratified that medicine has progressed since those days and rejected that quackery. Its too bad that we can't say the same about the talmud.

>>>There is no evidence at all for multiverse. It is just as magical as demons, yet it is a perfectly valid scientific theory. There is more eyewitness testimony for the existance of ghosts.<<<
Multiverse is not a theory.
You are clueless when it comes to understanding the scientific method and the technical scientific meanings of hypothesis, fact, theory, law etc.
There are also myriad declarations of alien abductions, psychic healings and dozens of other assorted crackpot notions. All as fanciful as talmudic demons and equally sa screwey.

>>>Now, the Gemeora's desxcription of the Mazzikin does sound a lot like diease causing protists. They are all over the place, and they cause harm. Maybe the Rabbis of the Talumujd where really onto something.<<<
It also sounds a lot like they really believed in demons. What would lead you to believe that they were immune from the supperstition of their age? I know its difficult to recognize that they weren't less superstitious than everyone else back then, but then you would have to entertain the notion that these folks had no more saintly prescience than the local pagan sorcerer.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...

>>>The multiverse theory is an attempt to explain why our universe is exqsuitely fine tuned to accomodate life without coming on to "God did it.<<<
Why? Its just as easy to say that god created the multiverse. Right now, its just rank speculation.

>>>And if you believe in multiverse, you have to believe in demons becuase there is a universe out there where demons do exist. Or maybe the demons are made of dark matter.<<<
Could be. I hope you're not suggesting that our great tanaim, amoraim, reshonim, achronim etc. etc. were all conversant in the scientific conjecture of multiverse?

>>>Now "we hope to have an answer for you someday," is a perfectly acceptable answer for atheists when confronted with the big problems of origins of the universe, origins of life, the human mind, human morality, religions, etc. So I can answer "we hope to have an answer for you someday" on the very small question of demons.<<<
Except for the fact that there are observations of the nature of matter that lead to a certain hypothesis that may suggest multiverse. There is nothing in the observable universe that may lead one to speculate that demons exist, except for the kind that regularly torment the minds of some true-believing chareidi fundamentalists.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>Basically, you're restating the Christian and Muslim doctrines: "oh yes, God did give the torah, but now He cancelled it."

The burden of proof is on them to demonstrate that but of course they can't.<<<
Of course they have demonstrated that. Otherwise they'd have converted to chareidism long ago. Even you can see the flawless logic in that!

jewish philosopher said...

Abe, when was your last checkup for Alzheimer's?

Anonymous said...

Abe:

See, some people would rather say anything than say "God did it." So multiverse is an attempt to answer the question of why our universe appears exquisitely fined tuned for life. It says that there are really an infinite number of universes, all different, and we live in the one where life is possibel. It is rank conjecture for which there is no evidence at all. Well, there is that very controversial anomaly in the cosmic background radiation, so there is a tniy bit of evidence. Yet it is a perfectly valid scientific theory. Now, there are miilions of people who have claimed to see ghosts. So there is actually eyewitness evidence that things like demons exist. There is more evidence than for multiverse. Now, I personally don't believe in ghosts or demons. But this is not a logical position. It is merely my personal bias. Now as far as the Gemora is concerned I paskin like the Western Amoraim who don't hold from demons, and the Rambam.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>Abe, when was your last checkup for Alzheimer's?
<<<
Mr. Stein, you need to repent and convert to the true religion, Islam. It is beyond incntrovertable that you are practicing the wrong religion. God is going to be exceedingly angry at you and will sentence you for everlasting damnation over Satan's hot coals.

http://www.islaam.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=201:is-the-religion-of-islam-true-or-false&catid=43:an-introduction-to-islam&Itemid=191

"...The literal word of God, revealed by God was revealed 14 centuries ago. It mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. It is beyond reason that anyone fourteen hundred years ago would have known these facts discovered or proven only recently with advanced equipment and sophisticated scientific methods...
...Many miracles were performed by the last prophet by God's permission. These miracles were witnessed by many people..."
How could this be wrong?

jewish philosopher said...

Sure. You first Abe. If you can believe in Darwin, Mohammed should be no problem.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...

>>>See, some people would rather say anything than say "God did it." So multiverse is an attempt to answer the question of why our universe appears exquisitely fined tuned for life. It says that there are really an infinite number of universes, all different, and we live in the one where life is possibel. It is rank conjecture for which there is no evidence at all. Well, there is that very controversial anomaly in the cosmic background radiation, so there is a tniy bit of evidence.<<<
You don't know what you're talking about.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081105-dark-flow.html
...The presence of the extra-universal matter suggests that our universe is part of something bigger—a multiverse—and that whatever is out there is very different from the universe we know, according to study leader Alexander Kashlinsky, an astrophysicist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland...

>>>Yet it is a perfectly valid scientific theory. Now, there are miilions of people who have claimed to see ghosts.<<<
It is not a scientific theory, it is speculation which may be true or false. It awaits furthur data and experimentation. Get your data and terms right.

>>>Now as far as the Gemora is concerned I paskin like the Western Amoraim who don't hold from demons, and the Rambam.<<<
Whether you paskin like the western Amoraim, the Rambam, the pope or Joe the Plumber is entirely a frivilous irrelevency. They exist or do not independent of of your pretentious allegations.

Anonymous said...

JP, yes or no:

You accept the Torah as all 100% true without question.

You accept the stories of the creation of the world, the deluge, the origin of people, the separation of languages, the bondage in Egypt, the liberation, etc. as all 100% true without question.

You accept that Talmud as 100% authoritative without question.

You reject all and everything about evolution (i.e., gradual development of species, common descent, mutation, natural selection, genetic drift, etc.) without question.

You disbelieve that Jesus was divine and resurrected again to physical life without question.

You believe that questioning the authority and authenticity of Torah and of talmudic rabbis is wicked.

You accept without question that there is another dimension (or more) where good and bad people go after they die.

gobbie said...

"So it's obvious to you that religions have a shelf life, after which they stop being true.

How long is this period? 10 years, 100, 1000? Is Mormonism still fresh?"

Yes, just like any idea whose time comes and goes.

When the alleged revelation is no longer evident, the religion is dead (or a hoax in the first place). The Greek Pantheon came and went. So did Ahura Mazda. And dozens of others. So will be the fate of the biblical god.

Of course there will always be people around who believe in them. But that doesn't mean they exist.

It is interesting that all of the sober peoples in ancient Rome and Arabia didn't see the "obvious" truth of heredi Judaism and adopt it rather than Christianity and Islam. Maybe Yahweh didn't exist then, or the arguments weren't so convincing.

They are even less convincing in 2010.

Anonymous said...

the fact that scientists do not reject it outright menas that it accepted as a valid scientific theory.

And I'm addressing your point about how we have to reject the entire Torah because some Amoraim claim that demons existed. There is basis for saying those Amoraim where mistaken. Just like with every macklolkes.

Anonymous said...

Multiverse theory was developed before that stuff in the article you linked was discovered. It was developed and accepted by scientists as an attempt to explain how the universe is exquisitely fine tuned to accomomdate life. It was accepted as a valid theory without the evidence. And if you believe in multiverse, then you have to believe in demons.

Anonymous said...

And if you can say, "we hope to have an answer for you someday" onthe origins of the universe, life etc. I cna say "I hope to have an answer for you" on the question of demons.

Anonymous said...

According to this:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.3988

the anomaly in the cosmic background radiation is a statistical fluke.

jewish philosopher said...

"You accept the Torah as all 100% true without question."

I would say to all those questions: there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/q016.htm

"You accept that Talmud as 100% authoritative without question."

I accept Talmudic law as authoritative.

"You reject all and everything about evolution"

I don't believe that new and useful limbs and organs can form spontaneously with no intelligent designer.

"questioning the authority and authenticity of Torah and of talmudic rabbis is wicked"

Rejecting any part of the Torah or Talmudic law as bogus is wicked.

jewish philosopher said...

"Yes, just like any idea whose time comes and goes."

That's quite convenient. Any law, ethic or morality which you want to ignore can be declared expired.

"It is interesting that all of the sober peoples in ancient Rome and Arabia didn't see the "obvious" truth of heredi Judaism and adopt it rather than Christianity and Islam."

The appeal to the people is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges, "If many believe so, it is so."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

gobbie said...

"The appeal to the people is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges, "If many believe so, it is so."

I made my statement in response to your unsubstantiated and absurd assertion that any sober and open minded person who knows the facts would see the truth of your form of Judaism.

"That's quite convenient. Any law, ethic or morality which you want to ignore can be declared expired."

Because its unappealing to you doesn't make it false. What do you call that, argument by incredulity or something like that?

That is in fact how all of mans morality and legal system has evolved. I don't declare it expired, the people as a whole do. That's all that morality is-- rules that people make.

I can hear it already-- reductio at Hitlerum.

There you have it-- most of humanity and most Jews have declared the Torah official expired.

Anon- "Why aren't most of the Torah applicable? How has the world changed? We don't have the Beis Hamikdosh, so we don't bring Korbonos."

Are you nuts? Count the mitzvas relating to sacrifices, temple construction & ritual, impurity, priests, tzaraat/zav, laws of Land of Israel and kings, interest, civil and criminal law-- all cancelled or observed as relics only. What's left? Yom Tov, Shabbos, Kiddushin, Get, Shma, Tzizit, Mezuzah, tefillin, succah, matzah,chametz, tzedakah, shechita, meat/milk, incest and milah. (Im not counting rabbinic laws). Maybe a few more laws in Israel. A few more negative laws, like not stealing, etc. You have maybe 25-30 mitzvahs that are "active", out of the original 613. Hmm.

jewish philosopher said...

"I made my statement in response to your unsubstantiated and absurd assertion that any sober and open minded person who knows the facts would see the truth of your form of Judaism."

Whatever your beliefs are, whether atheism, christianity, etc you must believe that most of humanity is in error.

"That's all that morality is-- rules that people make."

Wrong. The Torah are rules God made.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...
>>>the fact that scientists do not reject it outright menas that it accepted as a valid scientific theory.<<<
Again, you havn't got a clue regarding the technical scientific meaning of "theory". It is not a theory and there many scientists who reject this multiverse hypothesis outright.


>>>And I'm addressing your point about how we have to reject the entire Torah because some Amoraim claim that demons existed. There is basis for saying those Amoraim where mistaken. Just like with every macklolkes.<<<
I'm gratified that you state that some amoraim were mistaken. It follows that they were mistaken about many things, not just the existence of demons. And both the disputants may have been wrong also. Therefore the many of the halachic rulings are probably suspect and entirely wrong.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...
>>>Multiverse theory was developed before that stuff in the article you linked was discovered. It was developed and accepted by scientists as an attempt to explain how the universe is exquisitely fine tuned to accomomdate life. It was accepted as a valid theory without the evidence. And if you believe in multiverse, then you have to believe in demons.<<<
It was never accepted by even a small fraction of scientists. You just make these things up. I suppose when you can't advance your argument with facts, rank fabrication will do. And it really makes the talmud's veracity highly suspect.
http://www.thewonderoftheworld.com/Sections7-article83-page1.html
"...The latest multiverse idea, we have seen, is the bubble universe model of the inflationary theorists. In Linde's model, universes spring out of quantum energy-fields at random everywhere and all the time. Astronomers like Martin Rees have speculated that the apparent fine-tuning in the universe exists because at least one of the infinitely many universes will have the particular constants and conditions that made life possible. He admits, however, that the scientific case for a multitude of universes lies on the speculative fringe of cosmology; the idea is built on guesses not laws or evidence...."
"...Certainly there's no prohibition on theorists concocting theories that can't be scientifically verified immediately. At that point the theories become metaphysical and should be judged as philosophies. But if a theory is to qualify as scientific it can't wander too far from the experimental data. The great astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, an experimentalist of the highest order, once said that theoretical physicists sometimes let their mathematics run wild while anchoring it to very little in the way of observation. Another experimentalist, Saul Perlmutter, notes that theorists tend to go overboard for whatever is the latest new idea, whereas experimenters like him tend to assume the universe is very complicated and each new item of information shows how much we don't know..."

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>Wrong. The Torah are rules God made.<<<

No, you are absolutely, unquestionably wrong. Here are the real, true rules. Mr. Stein, repent before its too late. Stop being a slave to Hashem and become a slave to Allah. True Islam awaits.
http://www.bettermuslim.com/2006/07/28/24-rules-how-to-get-close-to-allah-swt/
...Never stop believing that you can win Allah’s love and thus work for it. Then you can win the love of Allah’s slaves...
...When people criticize your actions and effort, revise your actions and see if they please Allah or not. If they do; then ignore and remember how the Prophet (SAAW) and the Sahabah were criticized, made fun of and even physically harmed, so have patience....

jewish philosopher said...

Abe, you're getting warmer. Islam does make more sense than atheism. Now just one more step - what is Islam primarily immitating?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Judaism

gobbie said...

Even though I am not a lover of Islam, particularly the way that extremists have dominated it-- in all honesty in some ways Islam represented progress over Judaism. In its day it embraced science, mathematics and medicine. Its theology does not revolve around a fundamentalist metaphysics or cosmology. It has a more subtle and sophisticated view of god than orthodox Judaism. And it dispensed with ritual minutiae and the idea of temple and sacrifices. It took the ethical principles and subservience to god as the main pillars.

Like Judaism, Islam has been distorted due to culture and politics.

Having said that, I prefer my Judaism. But its far from yours, JP.

Anonymous said...

"That's quite convenient. Any law, ethic or morality which you want to ignore can be declared expired."

Funny. This never happens in Judaism. Never.

Now, off to the Temple to make the daily offerings.

jewish philosopher said...

"In its day it embraced science, mathematics and medicine."

There are today and have been in the past Orthodox Jews who were scientists, mathematicians and doctors. I know a few.

Muslims are basically semi-Judaized Arabs. Islam adds nothing worthwhile to human culture.

jewish philosopher said...

"Funny. This never happens in Judaism. Never."

From an atheistic point of view there is no rational, intellectual difference between shooting a person and popping a balloon full of chemicals.

Anonymous said...

Abe:

So it foloows that since some amoraim where wrong about demons all the amoraim where wrong about everything? You know that Darwin was wrong about so many things. Somany other scientists have been wrong about so many things. So I gues it follows that the scientists are wrong about everything.

Anonymous said...

Here is an example of multiverse used to sddress the cosmic fine tuning. Look at the paragraph about string theory:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

This website discusses the connection bewteen multiverse and the anthropic principle, which means that it is attempt to explain why our universe is fine tuned to accomodate life

http://www.allaboutscience.org/multiverse.htm

Abe said...

Anonymous said...

>>>So it foloows that since some amoraim where wrong about demons all the amoraim where wrong about everything?<<<
Not everything. Other than humanistic contentions, when it comes to unfalsifiable halachic mandates, arguments for their affirmation are as meaningless as disputes about the existence of demons. Hence, wearing tzitzis or drinking chalav yisroel milk are equaly worthless endeavors.

>>>You know that Darwin was wrong about so many things. Somany other scientists have been wrong about so many things. So I gues it follows that the scientists are wrong about everything.<<<
Yes, some of what science has taught has proven to be wrong. When new facts arise to impeach those mistakes, they are discarded and replaced by the new evidence. The same is not possible with talmudic/halachic doctrine because it is infallible and unfalsifiable. Thus, science may be wrong about something but those errors are eventualy corrected. Unfortunately, halacha is not open to correction, with the reulting moral corruption of chareidi judaism. The agunah outrages are just one example.
Try again in about a month. The time between pesach and shavuoth must be the period when talmudic logical inference is at its lowest point. Not that subsequent attempts at reason and logic would be much better.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
"Funny. This never happens in Judaism. Never."

>>>From an atheistic point of view there is no rational, intellectual difference between shooting a person and popping a balloon full of chemicals.<<<
On the contrary, its chareidi fundamentalists that would kill people with whom it disagrees. For example, homosexuals are soul-less untermenchen deserving of execution. Sure sounds like a third reich solution for halachic supremacy.

jewish philosopher said...

"its chareidi fundamentalists that would kill people with whom it disagrees"

There is no rational reason that killing anyone should bother you, so what are you complaining about?

That's besides the fact Orthodox Jews kill no one

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

while atheists kill millions, sometimes even eating the unfortunate victims

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/famous-atheist.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/atheists-in-their-own-words.html

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
"its chareidi fundamentalists that would kill people with whom it disagrees"

>>>There is no rational reason that killing anyone should bother you, so what are you complaining about?<<<
Of course there is a reason. Its called humanism. OTOH, you've called for the execution of holmosexuals many times. So its chareidism that killing doesn't bother. We atheists don't promote murder. Chareidim do.

Anonymous said...

Abe:

Chazal can be wrong abouthings outside their area of expertise. We are talking about demons, not halachas. Chazal can be sriong about halacha, too. But the Torah wants us to listen to them anyway because they know better. Just like we are expected to accept everything the scientists say, even if it makes nio sense at all, and they have a pretty poor record, and they have been guiltyof so much fraud.

And histories biggest mass murderers where atheist, a disproportionate number of mass murderers where atheists, and every time atheists run a country, they wind up commiting mass murder. So if you succeed in your quest of making the world atheistic, we can expect to see a marked increase in mass murder.

Anonymous said...

Here'sthje list of atheist mass muderers. Eachone was guilty of at least 20,000 non-martial murders. There are some who didn't make the list because they didn't murder 20,000 of their own people, but they nurdered a lot.



Afghanistan Nur Muhammad Taraki, Babrak Kamal
Albania Enver Hoxha
Angola Agostinho Neto, José Eduardo dos Santos
Bulgaria Vulko Chervenkov, Todor Zhivkov
Cambodia Pol Pot, Heng Samrin
China Mao Tse-Tung, Hua Guofeng, Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintau
Cuba Fidel Castro
Czechoslovakia Klement Gottwald, Antonín Zápotocký, Antonín Novotný, Gustáv Husák
East Germany Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker
Ethiopia Tafari Benti, Mengistu Haile Mariam
French Republic Jean-Marie Collot d’Herbois, Jacques Nicolas Billaud-Varenne
Greece Nikolaos Zachariadis
Hungary Mátyás Rákosi
Laos Kaysone Phomvihane, Khamtai Siphandone
Mongolia Khorloogiin Choibalsan, Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal
Mozambique Samora Machel
North Korea Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il
Poland Władysław Gomułka, Boleslaw Bierut
Romania Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, Nicolae Ceausescu
Soviet Union Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev
Spain Manuel Azaña, Francisco Largo Caballero
Vietnam Ho Chi Minh, Le Duan, Truong Chinh, Nguyen Van Linh, Do Muoi, Le Kha Phieu, Nong Duc Manh
Yugoslavia Josip Broz Tito

jewish philosopher said...

"Of course there is a reason. Its called humanism."

And that's my point - humanism is irrational from an atheistic point of view. It's based on some remnant of Judaism or Christianity.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/always-let-your-conscience-be-your.html

Abe said...

Anonymous said...

>>>Chazal can be wrong abouthings outside their area of expertise. We are talking about demons, not halachas. Chazal can be sriong about halacha, too. But the Torah wants us to listen to them anyway because they know better. Just like we are expected to accept everything the scientists say, even if it makes nio sense at all, and they have a pretty poor record, and they have been guiltyof so much fraud.<<<
Again, you just makes stuff up.
That's utter rubbish. We are not expected to accept everything that scientists say. Some have been proven to be fraudulent and when exposed, the data and results are rejected and the scientist excoriated. A prime example is the "science" of man-made global
warming. Its now becoming clear that much of that was politicaly correct fraud.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html
"...Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995By Jonathan Petre
Last updated at 5:12 PM on 14th February 2010
Data for vital 'hockey stick graph' has gone missing
There has been no global warming since 1995. Warming periods have happened before - but NOT due to man-made changes..."

That reversal can't happen to Chazal and the gedolim, because they can't be wrong. Show me a modern case where there was significant deliberate or unintentional halachic corruption or error and the efforts to overturn that halachic ruling.

Concerning atheist rulers committing atrocities and mass murder. Well, I condemn them too. However, I'm not indoctrinated to believe that atheist mass murder justifies chareidi irrationality.
They are both crazy, allthough of course the archetype is entirely different. However, It is my opinion that had chareidism gained political and military power, you'd see similar mayhem and atrocities emenating from them. Chareidi fundamentalism is not immune to aberant misdirection. If they seized power in Israel, you'd not see much difference between Jeddah and Jerusalem.

jewish philosopher said...

Actually, Saudi Arabia probably has the world's lowest rate of crime and aids. They may be on to something.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
"Of course there is a reason. Its called humanism."

>>>And that's my point - humanism is irrational from an atheistic point of view. It's based on some remnant of Judaism or Christianity.<<<
True. Except that atheists have kept the baby and jettisoned the irrational chareidi bathwater. Humanism has been retained and chareidi insanity renounced. Huminism is good. Most chareidism is bad. Its that simple.

jewish philosopher said...

Humanists basically say "I want christianity without the Christian part."

Humanism is so nonsensical and vague it obligates no one to do anything.

Anonymous said...

"Humanism is so nonsensical and vague it obligates no one to do anything."

No, it's religion that has co-opted humanist values. You religious folk want humanism "but better."

You and your need to have your life obligated and dictated to you. It's childish.

jewish philosopher said...

Secular humanism makes no sense. Without God, man is merely a miniscule bag of chemicals stuck to a speck of cosmic dust we call earth. In a few moments he will disintigrate and be forgotten. There is no rational reason to take any interest in him.

Anonymous said...

"Without God, man is merely a miniscule bag of chemicals stuck to a speck of cosmic dust we call earth."

Remove "without God," because with or without God makes no difference. Remove "merely" and I think you have the right idea. The thing is that surviving as a species is what's important. Elevating the happiness and welfare of the species is what individual life forms do.

Religion provides temporary happiness and fake wisdom. It works "pretty good," but humans are now at a stage when we need to move beyond the ancient beliefs and superstitions of our scientifically illiterate desert forefathers.

Religion is really an old car that needs to be traded in. It has outlived its usefulness.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>Humanists basically say "I want christianity without the Christian part." <<<
We also like Fundamentalist Chareidism without the loony part.

>>>Humanism is so nonsensical and vague it obligates no one to do anything.<<<
Nonsense. Secular humanists practice Hillel's golden rule, "what is hateful to you, do not do unto your fellow man." Many religions have a similar ethos. We like them all. http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm.

Unfortuantely, fundamentalist chareidism follows the rule of the jungle.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-mea-she-arim-mob-1.289570
"...Hardly a week goes by in Mea She'arim without a stone-throwing incident, the torching of garbage containers or the blocking of streets. The public has gotten so used to the violence there that it's hard to notice that a new phenomenon has sprung up..."



Haredim riot in Jerusalem

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3887775,00.html
"...Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox residents block roads, set garbage bins on fire to express their displeasure with arrest of haredi protest organizer; police officer wounded, three demonstrators detained..."

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>Secular humanism makes no sense. Without God, man is merely a miniscule bag of chemicals stuck to a speck of cosmic dust we call earth. In a few moments he will disintigrate and be forgotten. There is no rational reason to take any interest in him.<<<

That is true. There is no reason to take an interest in god because he does not exist. OTOH, the bag of finely tuned chemicals that was formulated by evolution into a complex sentient human being, has learned to obviate god's existence for civilized life. Unless of course you advocate fundamentlist chareidism, in which case civilized has become a foreign term.
http://thejewishstar.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/toldos-avrohom-yitzchok-rebbe-draws-blog-spotlight-to-lawrence/
...In Jerusalem and Beit Shemesh, followers of Rabbi Shmuel Yaakov Kohn, known as the Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok Rebbe, and his brother, Rabbi Dovid Kohn, Toldos Aharon Rebbe, are among those responsible for religiously-motivated vigilante attacks on women, and violent protests against chillul Shabbos (Sabbath desecration) that shocked the Jewish world several months ago...

jewish philosopher said...

"We also like Fundamentalist Chareidism without the loony part."

The loony part is I assume the part where it says you can't do whatever you want to do.

"Unfortuantely, fundamentalist chareidism follows the rule of the jungle."

Was Jeff Dahmer, cannibal and serial murderer, a chareidi or an atheist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjW7bezdddE

I've dealt with the issue of Orthodox Jewish crime in general.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

"The thing is that surviving as a species is what's important."

What on earth is important about it? Why is a person more important than a dog, a cockroach or a garbage bag?

Atheists are almost invariably debauched libertines, murders or both. If they have any morality, it's because they still, contradicting their stated beliefs, retain some remnant of beliefs inherited from grandparents who believed in the Bible.

The Jewish belief however is that man is supremely important - the pinnacle of creation, created in God's image and containing an eternal soul breathed into him by God. See Genesis 2.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0102.htm

Anonymous said...

Abe:

Maybe the reason that there has been no correction to halacha is that there have been no errors.

And if scientist can be wrong, they what is wrong with me rejecting evolution? It makes no sense to me.

And even of you condemn athiestic mass murderers,if you succeed in your quest of making the world atheistic, history shows us that we can expect a marked increase in mass murder.

And the if you complare the percentage of charedim who are rioting to the percentage of people in the general population who commit violent crimes,
I think the numbers would favor the charedim. The same can't ne said for atheistic mass murderers. The numbers are against you.

Anonymous said...

I keep on doing that, reducto ad atheist mass murderum. Sorry, my bad. It's just so easy, becuase there where so many of them, and they killed so many people, and their heirs don't care, as long as the mass murders aren't done in the name of atheism.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...

>>>Maybe the reason that there has been no correction to halacha is that there have been no errors.<<<
And your only assumption for that is an unfalsifiable mutual admiration society of Gedolim. That is just a self serving scheme, but certainly not scrutible, reliable evidence, in the scientific sense. And as such is meaningless. Your entire religion is prone to error and you don't even know it. Worse, you wouldn't care if you did.

>>>And even of you condemn athiestic mass murderers,if you succeed in your quest of making the world atheistic, history shows us that we can expect a marked increase in mass murder.<<<
I will never succeed in making the world religion free. Religion is needed for people like yourself who cannot control themselves. As a crutch to requite a lack of discipline and morality, it is a unfortunately a necessary corruption of human freedom. All the useless nonsense and ritualist constraints imposed on its disciples is emblematic of its silliness. However, we atheists will try to mitigate the folly of your fundamentalist endeavors in the hopes of restraining unbridled chareidi usurpation of freedom and civil liberties in Israel. Simply peruse any Israeli newspaper and on a daily basis you'll read about the ramapant violence and religious coercion by fundamentalist chareidim. If you want to embrace irrational fantasies of non-existent supreme beings, go knock yourself out. I won't try to stop you as long as you don't infringe on my liberties. Religion is like nicotine addiction. We will never end it, but we can try do diminish its allure, publicise its malevolence and treat its addicted. I sincerely believe that fundamentalist religion like yours will lead to the same mass murder that you condemn. You really think that you're much different from the islamic crazies? Think again.

jewish philosopher said...

"Simply peruse any Israeli newspaper and on a daily basis you'll read about the ramapant violence and religious coercion by fundamentalist chareidim."

The Israeli newspapers are simply political propaganda.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous - "I keep on doing that, reducto ad atheist mass murderum. Sorry, my bad. It's just so easy, becuase there where so many of them, and they killed so many people, and their heirs don't care, as long as the mass murders aren't done in the name of atheism."

Really, the numbers are against you. Only very recently has "atheist" been a category of identity for people.

These people who are mass murderers and who you call atheist, you need to show that "atheism told them" to kill. Otherwise, you could line up their mass murder with anything: maybe they were vegetarians, or recreational runners, or born of women, or whatever.

But your bigger problem is that religions such as Judaism are responsible for far more killing. If you believe the Tanach, the Jews committed all sorts of atrocities. Have you added up all of the numbers of the dead at Hebrew hands?

Next, consider all of the killing by those of you who purport to follow the Abrahamic God. That's Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Your religions are the greatest force not only for killing but for social repression that ever has been. Your religions are the single greatest source of evil in all the world.

Finally, please do not forget that if you believe your Torah then your God himself wiped out all of humanity and animal life in a great deluge. He alone is the greatest mass murderer of them all. But you worship him.

So please explain: if the numbers of the dead are so abhorrent to you, why do you praise that murderous and inconsistent psychopath in the sky?

jewish philosopher said...

If I may butt in,

"you need to show that "atheism told them" to kill"

Atheism told them that there is no reason not to kill if you think you will gain something material by doing so. As a result, the bodies just keep piling up.

"the Jews committed all sorts of atrocities"

"God himself wiped out all of humanity and animal life in a great deluge"

As far as killing caused by God or done at God's command, I don't see what the problem is. Without God there would be no life in the first place. "the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away" Job 1:21

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2701.htm#21

God practices "tough love".

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/08/kindness-of-suffering.html

As far as present day Orthodox Jews are concerned, we are mostly almost pacifists.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html

Anonymous said...

@JP

"As far as killing caused by God or done at God's command, I don't see what the problem is."

We know. That's your problem.

jewish philosopher said...

The atheistic critique of Judaism seems to be:
The massacre of the midianites by the Israelites as recorded in Numbers never really happened and it's a myth. However if it would have happened it would have been murder because there exists no God who could have commanded it. Therefore modern day Jews who admire the Israelites are guilty of admiring murderers (although actually mythical murderers).

But on the other hand, if there is no God then there is nothing wrong with murder. So this entire argument is total nonsense.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...

>>>The Israeli newspapers are simply political propaganda.<<<

Yeah, its a massive conspiracy to impugn the reputations of all those glorious chareidim gedolim who protect criminals like Chen and his acolytes.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3888436,00.html
Published: 05.12.10, 09:55 / Israel News

Four followers of "abusive rabbi" Elior Chen were convicted on Wednesday of all counts of child abuse with which they were charged.... Chen still faces trial. One of victims is in a permenent vegetative state.
Chen, who hid out in a haredi community in Brazil until he was exposed police and extradited, has received support from leading haredi rabbis, including Chaim Kanievsky, Aryeh Leib Shteinman and Yosef Shalom Elyashiv. In part, the letter those rabbis wrote read:
…"Rabbi Elior Chen's business all his life is to spread Torah.…We are committed to demonstrate His righteousness"…

Anonymous said...

@JP

"The atheistic critique of Judaism seems to be:
The massacre of the midianites by the Israelites as recorded in Numbers never really happened and it's a myth. However if it would have happened it would have been murder because there exists no God who could have commanded it. Therefore modern day Jews who admire the Israelites are guilty of admiring murderers (although actually mythical murderers)."

On, the critique is that if you believe your bible as you claim to, then your God is the single most prolific murderer of human beings and other life forms that's ever been.

You exclude God from blame in these murders. You exclude God from blame for murders done in his name. You also excuse Jews for murder.

Yet, you have the temerity to blame, falsely, every single modern murder in the world on atheism. I have already shown you why that reasoning is false -- i.e., atheism was not a cause (often) in those murders in the same way that God or religion was unambiguously a direct cause of the murders I have listed.

The point is that however evil you think atheists are, people with your beliefs are worse (historically) and your God is worse (if the Bible is true).

Here is a list of passages in the Hebrew scriptures, excluding the global flood (which killed all of humanity and all the innocent animals), where God kills. His death total, outside of the global planet-o-cide, is about 2.4 million people.

Gen.19:26
Gen.38:7
1 Chr.2:3
Gen.38:10
Ex.14:8-
Ex.32:27-28
Lev.10:1-3
Num.3:4
Num.26:61
Lev.24:10-23
Num.15:32-36
Num.16:27
Num.16:35
Num.26:10
Num.16:49
Num.25:9
Num.31:1-35
Joshua 7:10-12
Joshua 24-26
Joshua 8:1-25
Joshua 10:24-26
Judges 1:4
Judges 3:15-22
Judges 3:28-29
Judges 7:2-22
Judges 8:10
Judges 14:19
Judges 15:14-15
Judges 16:27-30
Judges 20:35-37
Judges 20:44-46
1 Sam.6:19
1 Sam.14:12
1 Sam.15:32-33
1 Sam.25:38
2 Sam.6:6-7
1 Chr.13:9-10
2 Sam.12:14-18
2 Sam.21:6-9
2 Sam.24:15
1 Chr.21:14
1 Kg.13:1-24
1 Kg.18:22-40
1 Kg.20:28-29
1 Kg.20:30
1 Kg.20:35-36
2 Kg.1:2-4, 17
2 Chr.22:7-9
2 Kg.1:9-12
2 Kg.2:23-24
2 Kg.7:17-20
2 Kg.9:33-37
2 Kg.17:25-26
2 Kg.19:35
Is.37:36
1 Chr.10:14
2 Chr.13:15-17
2 Chr.13:20
2 Chr.14:9-14
2 Chr.21:14-19
2 Chr.28:6
Ezek.24:15-18

jewish philosopher said...

I don't know much about Chen. He is apparently a psychopath who was previously secular. The letter by the rabbis is probably a forgery since if it was authentic then we should see posters and newspaper ads publicizing it.

In any case, Chen seems to pretty trivial compared to secular Israeli war crimes and cover ups.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes

jewish philosopher said...

Murder by definition means killing an innocent person. Each time the Bible describes God killing or telling others to kill, their sin is mentioned, hence this is not murder.

Atheists have no reason not to murder if murder seems profitable and indeed they often do.

Anonymous said...

Why did God murder all of those innocent animals in the flood? What did they do to deserve the same fate as the non-innocent people (except for the 7 survivors who later committed incest to make you and me) all over the world?

Think about that. Little babies in Brazil were wiped out in the Flood. But you say they weren't innocent. Funny, the Holocaust deniers love to say that the Jews of Europe weren't innocent either.

Atheists don't murder for the same reason people don't murder: it's usually irrational and against the law. If being Jewish is the only thing that prevents you from going on a killing spree, then you are already gone.

jewish philosopher said...

I honestly don't know why animals suffer.

Babies of wicked people would probably have matured to be wicked as well. God knew they were better off dying innocent.

" If being Jewish is the only thing that prevents you from going on a killing spree, then you are already gone."

Have you ever noticed how school shootings and serial killers almost did not exist before they stopped teaching the Bible and started teaching Darwin in American schools? Or that no othodox Jew is in prison for muder? I wonder if that's coincidence.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>I don't know much about Chen. He is apparently a psychopath who was previously secular. The letter by the rabbis is probably a forgery since if it was authentic then we should see posters and newspaper ads publicizing it.<<<

Oh, its definitely authentic. Apparently, you're entirely sympathetic to the greatest of your gedolim defending depraved child abusers. Why am I not surprised?
Here is the evidence.
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3861625,00.html


http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/03/gedolim-and-leadership.html
"...because I couldn't bring myself to believe that these signatures of the Gedolim were authentic. As much as I had seen what I believed to be improprieties in the Gedolim affixing their names to things, surely they couldn't do this. I was inclined to agree with all the commentators at the afore-posted link who insisted that the signatures must have been faked. People close to the Gedolim insisted that the letter was not authentic.

But then a neighbor of mine wrote to Rav Chaim Kanievsky, asking him why he signed it. He received the following reply:

על כתב שרבותי חתומים גם אני חותם

"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign."

The implications of this sentence are so appalling that I can't even think of how to write about it in a way that will do justice to it...."

Yeah. its all a grand conspiracy.

jewish philosopher said...

Maybe Slifkin wrote the letter himself.

Now can you please explain the secular Jewish mass murders of Palestinians and the cover ups?

Anonymous said...

"Have you ever noticed how school shootings and serial killers almost did not exist before they stopped teaching the Bible and started teaching Darwin in American schools? Or that no othodox Jew is in prison for muder? I wonder if that's coincidence."

When were "they" ever teaching the Bible in public schools? I completely favor teaching about religions in school. Our children should see how what religion they are depends a lot on where and when they live. They should see how religions make similar claims for themselves and promise damnation to the out-groups. You and I are on the same page here.

Why do you not want students to learn biology in schools? Don't you think it's important that our students understand at least a little of our current understanding of the development of life on earth?

I don't know how many Jews are in prison and for what crimes. I imagine that most communities fall in line statistically with an incarceration percentage. I would also suggest that local economics and educational opportunities would have more to do with crime than religious belief.

I find it funny that you carefully try to distinguish between Orthodox Jews and Secular Jews.

As you show for yourself in your posts and comments, you don't have to be a murderer to be an immoral, intolerant, lying, self-righteous, repressive, socio-pathic scumbag.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>Maybe Slifkin wrote the letter himself.<<<
And maybe the moon landing was a grand hoax also.

>>>Now can you please explain the secular Jewish mass murders of Palestinians and the cover ups?<<<
When it comes to internet pornography and oppression of palestinians, you are a much better expert than I am. So please tell us.

jewish philosopher said...

"When were "they" ever teaching the Bible in public schools?"

"The religious and moral education of youth was paramount in early American schools. The first book in the classroom was the Bible. It was central to a child’s education, not only for its content, but the way it was used to build skills."

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/evolving_classroom/books.html

This continued to some degree until 1963.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_School_District_v._Schempp

"Why do you not want students to learn biology in schools?"

Evolution is science in the same way that the Resurrection is history.

"I don't know how many Jews are in prison and for what crimes."

To the best of my knowledge, only one Orthodox Jew has ever been convicted of murder in the United States. He lives in Cleveland and was paroled a few years ago after serving 20 years. Proportionally, there should be 17 homicide convictions per year in the Orthodox community.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

"I find it funny that you carefully try to distinguish between Orthodox Jews and Secular Jews."

Because they are entirely different.

"you don't have to be a murderer to be an immoral, intolerant, lying, self-righteous, repressive, socio-pathic scumbag."

It's only the truth that hurts. I'm sorry that I have to hurt people, but that's my job. I'm the Jewish Philosopher.

"oppression of palestinians, you are a much better expert than I am"

Since you're holding me personally responsible for every crime committed or supposedly committed by an Orthodox Jew, I guess you hold yourself responsible for every crime committed by a secular Jew.

So what about all the Israeli war crimes and cover ups? Killed any babies today, Abe? Or are taking a day off?

Anonymous said...

Abe:

If y0u don't succeed in making the world atheistic amd causing a marked increase in mass murder, it won't be fpor lack of trying.

And don't the very same newspapers yuo suggest I read contain a lot more stories of secular people commiting all kinds of crimes?

And as far as me being "too far gone" I don't think that it applies to me, but religion does help me to be more charitable, more thoughtful, more considerate, etc. And some people are so far gone that the only thing that can help them is religion. There are all those alcoholic's and addicts. There are all those criminals who undergo jailhouse conversions. Religion, especially Judaism shifts the bell curve. Even Islam does better job than atheism. (See the list of atheist mass murderers above)

Abe said...

Anonymous said...
>>>And don't the very same newspapers yuo suggest I read contain a lot more stories of secular people commiting all kinds of crimes?<<<

Its not that secular people don't commit crimes, of course they do.
Its that the chareidi leaders, the gedolim, encourage crime and institionalize criminality. So what's an ignorant, secularly uneducated chareidi in Israel to do, but listen to ther rabbeim, cause mayhem and riot in the streets.

>>>If y0u don't succeed in making the world atheistic amd causing a marked increase in mass murder, it won't be fpor lack of trying.<<<
Atheism is not the engine of mass murder. Go back to school and learn the difference between correlation and causality. At least add it as an addendum to Choshen Mishpat.
Modern day atheists are among the most peace loving people on earth. Its not atheists that are rioting all over Jerusalem and other fundamentalist infested cities.

Abe said...

Since jewish philosopher said...
>>>you're holding me personally responsible for every crime committed or supposedly committed by an Orthodox Jew, I guess you hold yourself responsible for every crime committed by a secular Jew<<<
Not all Orthodox Jews, especially the modern orthodox ones who still retain many vestiges of rationality.
However, in a court of law, YOU wouldn't be held personaly responsible, because you would be judged insane. Still society must be protected from people like yourself, whether here or in Israel. That's why secular society in Israel is finaly coming to understand the grave danger you pose.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3885786,00.html
Poll: Secular public believes haredi majority endangers state

Gesher poll finds most seculars think state should withdraw benefits to ultra-Orthodox sector

Ynet Published: 05.06.10, 13:37 / Israel Jewish Scene

...A Ynet and Gesher poll has discovered that many secular members of Israel's population are concerned with predictions that the ultra-Orthodox sector will soon be a majority in Israel and believe this constitutes a major risk to the state's existence...

Anonymous said...

Abe:

Did any Godol actually say that people should riot?

And so many atheists, just like you, have told me that mass murder by atheists is okay as long as the motivating factor isn't atheism. Y'know just like the point you made about causation and correlation. So I don't think atheists are all that peace loving. And many of the murders commited by all those atheistic mass murderers where attempts to stamp out religion. So spreading atheism was and continues to be a motivating factor in all that mass murder.

And if the majority of people in a democracy become charedi, and deside to make the country charedi, then that is democracy in action.

jewish philosopher said...

Of course we're against the State of Israel. So is almost everyone else. Even United States policy is increasing anti-Zionist.

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/03/14/the_petraeus_briefing_biden_s_embarrassment_is_not_the_whole_story

Beginning with the De Haan murder in 1924

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Isra%C3%ABl_de_Haan#Assassination

and continuing up to the Gaza war crimes of January, 2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Ibrahim_al-Maqadna_Mosque_strike

Zionists have been repeatedly shown to be a gang of killers.

Abe, the entire world must be protected from people like yourself. Who knows how many babies you've killed?

Abe said...

Anonymous said...
Abe:

>>>Did any Godol actually say that people should riot<<<

By their acquiesence, indeed they do. They rarely condemn these miscreants, because they both harbor the same venality against the secular state. If they all would vociferously, in all news media, publicly denounce these chareidi terror gangs, I think the violence might end.


>>>And so many atheists, just like you, have told me that mass murder by atheists is okay as long as the motivating factor isn't atheism. Y'know just like the point you made about causation and correlation. So I don't think atheists are all that peace loving<<<
I never said its ok. Its just your delusional conflation of the two.
Blah, blah, blah .
However, I see only chareidim rioting in Jerusalem and Beit Shemesh, injuring policemen, but no atheists.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said... >>>Zionists have been repeatedly shown to be a gang of killers.
Abe, the entire world must be protected from people like yourself. Who knows how many babies you've killed?<<<

http://www.zionism-israel.com/True_Torah_Nazis.htm

Well, its gratifying that you've shown yourself to be a true Torah-Nazi. For a moment I thought it was only all homosexuals and apostates that you desire to dispatch. It doesn't surprise me that you've now joined the ranks of the Torah Nazis and now want murder all Zionists too.
I think I should notify Janet Napolitano, direct her to your blog and suggest that you be placed on the do not fly list. Who knows what you might bring onto your next flight to Israel.

jewish philosopher said...

So society must be protected (how? Maybe gassing us?) from the Orthodox because a few have been convicted of child abuse or because we have too many kids. On the other hand, even mentioning the numerous murders committed by your community is a crime.

Kill the religious, cover up for the atheists. Does that sound a little bit like Stalin?

This is why atheism must be destroyed. Nothing really changes.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher
>>>Kill the religious,... Does that sound a little bit like Stalin?<<<

No it sounds like chareidi torah nazis. This is now a daily occurance in Israel
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3888895,00.html

Haredi Man Beats Woman For Wearing Tefillin.
Noa Raz was waiting for a bus in Beer Sheva when a haredi man approached and asked about the strap marks on her arm. "Tefillin?" he asked. When Raz answered yes, the attack began.
...No, it's not a story about a man who had assaulted someone at a bus stop. זה אפילו לא סיפור על אלימות נגד נשים. It's not even a story about violence against women. זה סיפור על אלימות דתית. It's a story about religious violence. זה סיפור על תקיפה של אדם על רקע אמונתו, על רקע רצונו לעבוד את הקב"ה בדרכו, בדל"ת אמותיו, לפי תפישתו, לפי הבנתו את תורתנו הקדושה. It's a story about a man's assault against his faith, against God will work in the way...

jewish philosopher said...

Still small potatoes compared to Israeli war crimes. I'm going to start calling you BK - baby killer.

Abe said...

jewish philosopher said...
>>>Still small potatoes compared to Israeli war crimes. I'm going to start calling you BK - baby killer.<<<

Call me whatever you like. If venting your spleen mollifies the demons ransacking your mind, I'll welcome your pertinacious fury as a chesed to an unfortunate soul.
I understand, Mr. Stein. I understand. all those Yesurim shel ahava from god that you must endure. You poor thing.
Just don't call me late for dinner, especially if its to the last supper before the Spinka Rebbe's departure to serve his 5 year sentence for a $10 million laundering conviction.
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/spinka_rebbe%27s_namesake

jewish philosopher said...

$10 million and 5 years? That's all you've got?

In your community, it $18 billion and 150 years! That's serious fraud!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff

Anonymous said...

Abe:

When an atheist commits a crime, the press doesn't mention it. When An Orthodox person does, the press makes a point of mentionng hos orthodoxy. I still think that the rate pf violent crime among OJ's is less than that of the genenral population, despite the handful of fanatics in Ramat Beit Shemesh.

Abe said...

Anonymous said...

>>>When an atheist commits a crime, the press doesn't mention it. When An Orthodox person does, the press makes a point of mentionng hos orthodoxy.<<<

That is true, but not because of any reticence to withold his faithless inclination. Its just not material to an atheist's crimes. A chareidi's crimes OTOH stand out as mockery of his religion and a hypocritacal charade of false piety. If it were just a few chareidi miscreants, we could dismiss the crimes as minor abberations, but its not. The frequency is increasing. That's the news story.
>>>I still think that the rate pf violent crime among OJ's is less than that of the genenral population, despite the handful of fanatics in Ramat Beit Shemesh.
>>>Think what you like but its not true. Just peruse the Israeli newspapers and almost on a daily basis, you'll read about this or that riot. Those violent crimes would cease, if the "gedolim" would issue a denunciation of the miscreants and their crimes. But they havn't. I'm still waiting for Chaim Kanievsky, Aryeh Leib Shteinman and Yosef Elyashiv to denounce these people and their criminality. And lets not forget the awful pedophilic abuse which has been and is still being covered up in chareidi communities, under the guise of "moser". That's why you have TV stations outing the chareidi communities for their coverups.
Shame.!
http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-sex-abuse-32-years-max,0,4358743.story


http://atheists.org/blog/2010/03/11/jewish-pedophiles-and-the-system-in-which-they-prey
...None of the nearly $1 million set aside to tackle sex abuse in New York’s ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities has been spent, even as another program set up to help scrambles for cash.The state has earmarked $950,000 since April 2009 to fund Assemblyman Dov Hikind’s plans to teach Hasidic Jews to speak up against child molestation....

Anonymous said...

Abe:

The Israeli newspapers tend to be anti-Orthodox. Every adult knows that newspapers are highly selective abotu what is published. Now, the press had a lots of articles about pedophile priests. But it turns out that priests are no more likey to molest a child than anyone else. It just makes for sensational press. Now, the people who really cannot keep their hands off the children are the public school teachers. According to some studies 25% of people surveyed reported being abused by a public school teacher. But that doesn't make much of a story.

And I'm not sure that the crazies in Ramat Beit Shemesh would listen to the Gedolim.

And Red Shlomo Zalman Auerbach did say that abusers must be reported to the authorities. The problem is determining if the abuse really happened. A few years ago, a group of parents reported to the DA that the husband of a day care operator molested their kids. The DA didn't even open a file because there was no evidence, just hysterical parents. Even in the Kolko case, the prosecutors felt the evidence was weak, so they let him plead to a lesser charge and avoid jail.

Mr. Cohen said...

Duties of the Heart, The Gate of Service to G_d, Section 10:

Express pride when you face atheists and people who reject G_d.
Never be humble before such people, G_d forbid, giving them the impression that you accept their views and gravitate toward their perverse ideas.
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