Monday, March 29, 2010

Some People Think I'm Delusional

[Jill Vermeire, MFT and Dr. Drew Pinsky in Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew]

when I claim that "Jewish skeptics" leave because of sexual addiction not philosophical questions.

Well, think again....


Abe said...

>>>when I claim that "Jewish skeptics" leave because of sexual addiction not philosophical questions.<<<

One Jewish skeptic citing personal sexual tensions do not make all those who abandon orthodoxy sexualy addicted. Sexual neurosis are a product of chareidi compulsions so it doesn't surprise me that a few defectors leave with some sexual complaint.
OTOH, there are myriad sexual pathologies in the cloistered shadows of chareidi society. It seems like every other day there is a story about this or that ultra orthodox or chareidi Rav, enveloped in a sex crime scandal.

Just google "orthodox rabbi pedophile sex crimes" and you'll view dozens more.

jewish philosopher said...

"Sexual neurosis are a product of chareidi compulsions"

In the United States today there are currently over 700,000 registered sex offenders. How many are a product of chareidi compulsions?

"orthodox rabbi pedophile sex crimes"

I know of no case of a leader of an orthodox Jewish congregation who has been convicted of a sex crime.

One modern orthodox high school principal was convicted in 2002 of sexually abusing two teenage girls, specifically touched the breasts, groping and pressuring with veiled sexual overtures two 16-year-old students. Not exactly an epidemic of rabbinical pedophilia. And this guy was not "charedei" incidentally, or actually a pedophile.

jewish philosopher said...

If however you want to talk about scientists gunning down their colleagues, probably in a fit of Darwinian delusions, now that's another story.

Anonymous said...


According to a number of studies, from 3 to 25 percent of people who attended pblic school report being sexually abused by a teacher. So, I think the secualr world has a more prevalent problem thna the Charedi world.

ZY Anon said...

Wake up, JP

(From R Slifkin's blog)

jewish philosopher said...

I really don't get it. The head of a small yeshiva (20 students) in New York was caught having sex with a non-Jewish woman and several Israeli rabbis signed a letter saying that they believe that an accused child abuser is innocent. Proving??

Now if you want to see what scientists are up to, check this out:

Undercover Kofer said...

JP: Thanks for trafficking people to my kofer site! :)

You don't seem to grasp that sexual repression is not more than a powerful eye opener to other warped features of the orthodox way of life. Most don't go off the derech just for sex.It is a combination of facts, sometimes triggered by sex, sometimes by philosophy, sometimes by abuse, etc. etc.

The sexual frustration could for many just be solved by getting married. Many young frustrated orthos actually do that and get married young because their hormones think this is their bashert because they hardly ever get into contact with the opposite sex.

As has been pointed out by some already, your focus on this aspect of OTD only tells me that this is somewhat of an obsession of yours.

Get over it already is my advise.

jewish philosopher said...

In regards to the phenomenon of Orthodox Jews converting to atheism, I think the preponderance of evidence points toward sexual compulsion as being almost always the primary motive, as I explain here.

In earlier times, other issues were more important.

"You don't seem to grasp that sexual repression is not more than a powerful eye opener"

Sure, and drug addicts think the anti-drug laws are oppressive.

ZY Anon said...

The over generalization which characterizes this entry and much of your blog is transparent to all. But you use it selectively. If one rabbi is a sex offender, than you say, "what does that prove?"
But when a few skeptic/atheists out of the millions in the world are "sex addicts", then you have no problem claiming all of them are addicts.

This is called, "confirmation bias" and "over-generalization".

You have had some intelligent posts in the past. Why not more of those, rather than these ridiculous entries?

jewish philosopher said...

The sex problem is nearly universal among Orthodox Jews converting to atheism since about 1960, as far as I can tell.

zy anon said...

Rabbi Motti Alon was one of the most outspoken critics of homosexuals

Turns out he is a homosexual predator.

The source of homophobia is often an internal conflict:

The same could be said for hyper-religiousity, as demonstrated by the case of Rabbi Leib Tropper, the most pious and strict arbiter of conversion standards to Judaism. Reportedly he cancelled conversions of women converts who were seen wearing pants. It turns out he likes to hump his convert students.

Now hypocrisy is certainly not new or unique to Jews. But, you too, JP, seem to be curiously and intensely obsessed with sex, heresy and piety, defending the most "pure" and strict standards of Judaism.

Since confident and healthy Jews have no need to spread venomous and extreme opinions, it certainly should give pause as to the origin of your professed ideas.

jewish philosopher said...

"Since confident and healthy Jews have no need to spread venomous and extreme opinions"

Sure we do. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

ZY Anon said...

""All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Sure, if spreading hatred and bigotry is considered good.

Anonymous said...

ZY anon:

The very people who accuse JP of conformation bias and overgeneralizing are the same people who point to a handful of Rabbis accuse of sexual abuse of children and talk about an epidemic.

And what is the alterantive to the Orthodox approach to sexuallity, with all its "repression?" Do they want the OJ worl to emulate the society at large? There you will find rampant adultery, STD epidemics, teenage pregnancies, etc. etc. etc. According to a resent study onme out of four tennage girls is has an STD. I'll take sexual repression over that any day.

jewish philosopher said...

"Sure, if spreading hatred and bigotry is considered good."

Atheist Sam Harris advocates destroying bad ideas through verbal intolerance.

Amen. I agree.

ZY Anon said...

Ideas not people.
You and your belief system advocate destroying people.

jewish philosopher said...

And so does atheism.

Atheists always murder other religious leaders when they come to power.

Anonymous said...

Sam Harris did say that it is moral to kill all theists because the moderate theists enable the extremist theists to commit atrocities. So Harris is in favor of killing people as well. That's actually pretty in line with the way atheists behave when they get the chance.

zy anon said...

"Sam Harris did say that it is moral to kill all theists because the moderate theists enable the extremist theists to commit atrocities."

That's false and stupid, he never said that. He said that moderates must also be disputed on ideological grounds, not killed.

Anon,I can see by your comments that you are willing to say any idiotic and false statement to further your agenda.

"Atheists always murder other religious leaders when they come to power."

"Reductio ad Hitlerum", a logical fallacy. Besides, who is doing all of the slaughtering today?

Besides, you don't consider murder to be such a problem, since all atheists and heretics are condemned to death anyway. So don't pretend to be bothered by killing. Kind of reminds me of Al Qaida terrorists complaining that about their civil rights are being denied in prison. You pretend to adopt liberal humanistic values about the value of life when its convenient for your argument.

Jews have not generally been guilty of mass slaughter because throughout most of history they were a persecuted and powerless minority. However when they were a powerful empire, as in biblical days, they did indeed engage in mass slaughter. Throughout the remainder of history religious Christians and Muslim engaged in atrocities in the name of religion.

Having said that, in a historical perspective most atrocities are committed for political/ethnic reasons, with religion used as a convenient excuse. I don't believe that religion is the ultimate CAUSE of the atrocities, in most cases.

jewish philosopher said...

"Reductio ad Hitlerum", a logical fallacy.

What kind of logical fallacy? You accused Jews of hating and killing, while I am simply pointing out that atheists do the same.

Anonymous said...

The atheists in Cuba are doing plenty of killing. The atheists in North Korea are doing plenty of killing. Same in China. And you first brough up killing.

And were did I ever say atheists are condemned to death? Are you talking about the fact that the Torah consideres blasphemers Mechuyav Misa. Well, we all know how hard it was for Beis din to put anyone to death.

zy anon said...

JP prays for heretics death, and commentators through the middle ages including Rambam advocated pushing them into pits.

I would say that anybody who you determine to be "worthy of death" because of their beliefs is someone whose life you consider less valuable than your own, and this is immoral.

While it is true that laws such as these are vestiges of a time when heretics were political enemies as well, and thus these laws are not applicable nowadays, but the moral statement stands nonetheless.

Even if a rabbinical court were to convene on such matters, humanity no longer accepts putting blasphemers, harlots and sabbath violators to death.

jewish philosopher said...

I still don't understand your point.

You accuse Jews of hating and killing atheists. That's basically true (although I think you'll find the body count is very low, around zero).

However on the other hand, atheists also hate and kill Jews. See Sam Harris and Soviet Communists for examples.

So why do you believe atheism is superior?

zy anon said...

"See Sam Harris "


jewish philosopher said...

Read his views about intolerance.

Anonymous said...

"some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them."

Sam Harris "The End of Faith"

Anonymous said...

ZY anon:

What exactly is your basis for saying it is wrong to want to kill atheists? What is your basis for saying anything is wrong, or that right and wrng even exist?

ZY Anon said...

Sam Harris doesn't advocate killing Jews. You're taking the quote out of context, he's talking about terrorists, read his own response on his web site.

Anon- Since nonreligious, humanistic morality is an agreed upon set of rules governing human behavior (with variations in each society) designed to promote cooperation and minimize suffering, it would not make sense that killing a person who does not believe in god is moral. This morality organizes communities and builds upon the natural empathy people have towards their kin and themselves. And it was happening for 10s of thousands of years before their was Yahweh and Torah.

This is the basis of moral change which has occurred in in terms of equality and individual rights, in contrast to religion.

Perhaps you yearn to return to a golden age of kings, dictators, slavery, dominance over women, genocide, and execution by stoning and burning or witches and blasphemers. I don't.

Albeit with spasms and aberrations, most of the world has become a freer and safer place than it was hundreds or thousands of years ago.

jewish philosopher said...

That's pretty much only true of English speaking countries since about 1800, which have actually been mildly Christian but never officially atheistic.

ZY Anon said...

Most of the western world. Maybe not atheist, but definitely more secular-- god is not at the center, but rather people.

jewish philosopher said...

Real avowed atheists are no more tolerant than any other religious extremists.

According to the World Freedom Report, as a general rule, the freest countries are liberal Christian countries while the most repressive are Islamic or atheist.

The United States Declaration of Independence, the foundation of liberal democracy, explicitly endorses creationism.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Evolution, on the contrary, is a basis of Fascism.

Darwin wrote:

"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world."


Hitler wrote:

"A state which in this age of racial poisoning dedicates itself to the care of its best racial elements must some day become lord of the earth."

Mein Kampf Volume Two - A Reckoning Conclusion 1926

Anonymous said...

I didn't say that Sam Harris wants to kill Jews. He wnats to kill everybody who is religious.

Now, as far as morality is concerned, in Germany it was agreed upon that all Jews should be killed. In parts of the United States, slavery was accepted as normal. And through most of history, it was accepted that warfare was okay. You can kill people from other countries.

Now, before the spread of Torah ethics, infanticide was legal, was considered moral, and was common.

And the crime rate in Western countries is going up. A higher percentage of American citizens are in prison now, than at any time in history. I don't know how much things have improved.

Anonymous said...

And atheists like you have killed more people than any theists have. I'll take a few witch burnings over the Great Leap Forward anyday.

Anonymous said...

And atheists like you have killed more people than any theists have. I'll take a few witch burnings over the Great Leap Forward anyday.

Anonymous said...

And Sam Harris said that it is moral to kill people for believing things. And he wrote that there is no significant difference between the moderate theist and the extremist. So it is a very smnall step to killing all theists.

Anonymous said...

ZY anon:

Are yuo saying that modern societies have eliminated slavery? I understand the sex slavery is a big business in many modern countries. That also is a form of domination over women. So I don't know how much things have improved.

And nobody commits genocide liek an atheists.

Anonymous said...

And it looks like your morality only extends to one's communty and family. I guess loveof all humanity had to wait for religion

zy anon said...

"And it looks like your morality only extends to one's communty and family. I guess loveof all humanity had to wait for religion"

Quite the opposite. Originally Judaism is an ancient tribal religion that advocates taking care of its own, not all of humanity. Only modern liberal Judaism adopted the universal tikkun olam idea, practically.

Humanism extends morality to an ever widening circle, way beyond what religion does.

Anonymous said...

But the empathy you mentioned above that evolved somehow, only extends to ones family, like chimps that will eat members of another troup. Or like the Nazis who only liked their own race. Somehow, the circle widened. And it widened to include all of humanity when religion was predominant.

zy anon said...

"Somehow, the circle widened. And it widened to include all of humanity when religion was predominant."

When? And by whom?

That didn't seem to have anything to do with religion.

Anonymous said...

Well, lets see. There was the Patriarch Abraham, who loved everybody. That predates secular humanism. Then there's the Torah that says we have to respect the Edomites, the Moabotes, the Egyptians etc. And then there's the Rambam, who wrote that it is a mitzva to care for gentile sick, poor etc. All this predates secular humanism.

Anonymous said...

And I'm still not clear as to the secular humanistic reason for loving all humanity. The Nazi's raced based approach, or the eugenics movements that were popular in the early nineteenth century are actually more scientific. You guys like that sort of stuff.

zy said...

The Torah also said to slaughter all inhabitants who were idol worshippers, permitted enslaving and raping enemies and burning down their cities.

Not exactly universalist ethics.

You're using "confirmation bias"

I notice you like to use the reductio ad Hitlerum fallacy alot. This goes somethink like "Hitler was an atheist (he wasn't, he quoted god alot); He was an evil murderer; therefore all atheists all evil murderers.

Saddaam Hussein was a brutal dictator and murderer, a Muslim. But I don't think that he did it because of Islam, it was political. But thats the argument you make.

You're also using a straw man argument again. I never said that nothing in torah or religion is worthwhile or ethical. So what are you proving by telling me "Abraham loved everybody"? So? And his sons Isaac and Jacob were not exactly examples of impeccable universal morality.

zy said...

A new species of intermediate homonids was found in S Africa, dated to 1.9 million years ago.

Did got stick those skeletons their just to fool us?

Anonymous said...

"Patriarch Abraham, who loved everybody."

Except Hagar and his bastard son, but fuck them, right?

Anonymous said...

The posuk says that Abraham did not wnat to send Hagar and
Yishmoel away, so he did love them.

Anonymous said...

The Torah sadi to slaughter specific nations becauset they were very bad people, like they burned babies to Moloch.
It also lists the people we are not suppose to harm. And I never said Hiterl was an atheist. He was a Darwinist. A careful reading of Mein Kampf shows that he used "The Creator" and "nature" interchangably. So that woudl indicate he wss more of a pantheist. Now, what I did say was that mass murderers like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il, Castro, etc. etc. etc. were atheists. I also said that the worse mass murderers were atheists, that a disproportionate number of mass murderers were atheists, and that ever time ateists run a country, they resort to mass murder.

Anonymous said...

FYI: here is a list of atheist mass murderers. Each one is responsible for at least 20,000 murders.

Afghanistan Nur Muhammad Taraki, Babrak Kamal
Albania Enver Hoxha
Angola Agostinho Neto, José Eduardo dos Santos
Bulgaria Vulko Chervenkov, Todor Zhivkov
Cambodia Pol Pot, Heng Samrin
China Mao Tse-Tung, Hua Guofeng, Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintau
Cuba Fidel Castro
Czechoslovakia Klement Gottwald, Antonín Zápotocký, Antonín Novotný, Gustáv Husák
East Germany Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker
Ethiopia Tafari Benti, Mengistu Haile Mariam
French Republic Jean-Marie Collot d’Herbois, Jacques Nicolas Billaud-Varenne
Greece Nikolaos Zachariadis
Hungary Mátyás Rákosi
Laos Kaysone Phomvihane, Khamtai Siphandone
Mongolia Khorloogiin Choibalsan, Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal
Mozambique Samora Machel
North Korea Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il
Poland Władysław Gomułka, Boleslaw Bierut
Romania Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, Nicolae Ceausescu
Soviet Union Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev
Spain Manuel Azaña, Francisco Largo Caballero
Vietnam Ho Chi Minh, Le Duan, Truong Chinh, Nguyen Van Linh, Do Muoi, Le Kha Phieu, Nong Duc Manh
Yugoslavia Josip Broz Tito

Anonymous said...

What's interesting about the new australopithicus species, is that it is dated to 1.9 million years ago, but homo its descendant, is dated to 2.3 million years ago. And some estimates the age of homo erectus put it at 2 million years ago. So its like being older than your father.

Anonymous said...

The founder of modern totalitarianism, Mussolini, was an atheist. So now I guess
I'm guilty of Reducto ad Mussolinium.

Anonymous said...

Yet God is the biggest genocidal maniac of them all. Global flood, anyone?

zy said...

"What's interesting about the new australopithicus species, is that it is dated to 1.9 million years ago, but homo its descendant, is dated to 2.3 million years ago."

What is interesting that you don't know that evolution occurs in a branching tree and is not linear.

"The founder of modern totalitarianism, Mussolini, was an atheist. "

Nice observation. He also wore white underwear. So what?

Humans are complicated and some people are bad and do bad things. Are you suggesting that religion prevents that? Just look at what the Christians and Muslims did to each other and to the Jews in the Middle Ages.

"The Torah sadi to slaughter specific nations becauset they were very bad people.."

And every religion has their god to tell them to slaughter other people. Never mind that each god tells their people not to murder, because it doesn't count as murder when they're killing heretics and other opponents.

Anonymous said...


Every time they find a transitional fossil, there tunrs out to be a problem. Arceaopteryx is no longer a bord ancestor. Tiktaalik is no longer a tetrapod ancestor. IDa is no longer a transition between lemurs and monkeys. Thats not what I would expect to find if evolution really happened.

See, the numbers are against atheists. So if yuo succed in your quest of making the workld atheistic we can expect to see a maked increase in mass murder.

I]m not sure what you last point is. My point was a reponse to the charge that the Torah allows killing outsiders. It clearyl doesn't. Ane atheists don't need a God to tell them to kill outsiders. They'll just as soon kill tehir own kind. See, the numbers are against you.

Anonymous said...

Sorry typo:

Should be "marke increase"

Anonymous said...


was this what you were talking about. Well, it seems that there is some controversya about its status as a human ancestor. Happens every time.

Dumber said...

"Some People Think I'm Delusional when I claim that "Jewish skeptics" leave because of sexual addiction not philosophical questions."

I don't think you're delusional for thinking this. I think you're scientifically ignorant by supplying just a couple of data points in order to prove your thesis that most skeptics leave for reasons of sexual addiction.

jewish philosopher said...

"supplying just a couple of data points"

I think my case is stronger than that.