Tuesday, October 13, 2009

Unquestioning Obedience – a Jewish Ideal


[Jews reciting Shema]

Every morning and every evening, every Orthodox Jew recites the verse “Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One” (Deut. 6:4). The Talmud states that reading this verse constitutes “accepting upon himself the yoke of the kingdom of Heaven". This means that one is willing to do anything that God asks of him without hesitation.

The Binding of Isaac (Genesis 22) is one of the great spiritual triumphs of all time. Abraham is commanded to offer his beloved son Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeys without question or hesitation. God then declares (verse 12) “now I know that thou art a God-fearing man”. God does not praise people too often. The Binding was an epic accomplishment in human history which we must all attempt to emulate.

Pirkei Avos 4:1 states “Who is wise? He who learns from all people”. The discipline and sacrifice exemplified by elite military organizations such as the United States Marines can be a model of the devotion we must have to God.

Alfred Tennyson famously wrote in The Charge Of The Light Brigade “Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do & die” .

I personally have found that making vows can be a very powerful tool. Each week I can read a list of vows along the lines of:

The following fast days will be obligatory only if I definitely and knowingly require myself to observe them, and I am aware that I am required to observe them an hour after having fulfilled the conditions needed to require the fast.

I hereby accept upon myself that if later this week or next week I knowingly unblock any webpage from ContentProtect software I will be required to fast 1 day during this month of --------- or next month of -----------.

107 comments:

Alex said...

"This means that one is willing to do anything that God asks of him without hesitation."

Naaseh v'nishma, indeed.
But what if God didn't ask something of /me/, but rather asked it of my ancestors, and I'm not positive if the details of the instructions were transmitted properly to my teacher. OR, lets say God asks something of me /directly/, but I can interpret it in two different ways, leading to two alternative outcomes. (I don't mean to accuse God of being vague, but let's just say that many pesukim can be interpreted in more than one way.)

jewish philosopher said...

That actually happens frequently. There are many cases of halachic doubt.

As far as what to do in practice, there are rules.

For example, for a Torah commandment, we are strict in case of a doubtful prohibition. For rabbinical commandments we are lenient. If rabbis disagree, we follow the majority ruling. There are very ways of resolving doubts.

Anonymous said...

The Binding of Isaac is hardly a triumph. No person should be commanded to offer his/her child as a sacrifice; no person should should unquestioningly obey such a command.

I find it scary that anyone would see it as a positive value to be willing to sacrifice her/his own offspring.

jewish philosopher said...

I'm sure you don't, because you're a narcissist.

“Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do & die”

Anonymous said...

'I'm sure you don't, because you're a narcissist.'

Uh, no. But thanks anyway.

A narcissist excessively admires himself. Being unwilling to sacrifice my children doesn't make me a narcissist.

On the contrary, you are the narcissist for proudly focusing on yourself and your oh-so-great commitment to allah, joseph smith michaelangelo, tennyson, the rabbis, or whomever you're please to consider inspired.

Your so-called faith is the very height of narcissim because you've taken your own image, made it a god, and then declared to all that their faith must be as good as yours.

But if that's what it takes for you not having to face how much you disgust yourself, go for it.

jewish philosopher said...

Mr. Anonymous, not only are cowardly hiding behind an anonymous Internet connection while ridiculing me and my religion, however you are also a little confused.

I love God with all my heart, soul and strength. At least I try to. See Deut. 6:5.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0506.htm#5

You love yourself with all your heart, soul and strength. See "narcissism".

http://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd-definition/menu-id-1471/

Therefore this post sounds outrageous to you. "I'm going to do and die! WTF!! Like hell I am!"

onionsoupmix said...

I hereby accept upon myself that if later this week or next week I knowingly unblock any webpage from ContentProtect software I will be required to fast 1 day during this month of --------- or next month of -----------.


How about trying this one: I hereby resolve not to criticize atheists and others for their alleged porn problems as long as I am still having to fast for unblocking my own computer pages.
And if I continue to be hypocritical in that way, I will fast and wear sackloth and ashes and roll in the snow.

jewish philosopher said...

Oh, talk about hypocrites! The only reason you don't work in a brothel is because they keep throwing your resume in garbage.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/rational-response-squad.html

Larry Tanner said...

JP, your comments to Onionsoupmix are always very personal, hostile and sexually-tinged.

Do you consider yourself a misogynist?

jewish philosopher said...

Notice that she attacked me first by calling me, falsely, "hypocritical".

Correct me if I'm wrong, however I generally respond to people in a tone similar to one they use with me.

Larry Tanner said...

I understand what you're saying. It just seems that you hold particular hostility for this one person. Maybe I'm mis-reading.

Abe said...

>>>Notice that she attacked me first by calling me, falsely, "hypocritical".


She did not call you a hypocrite, she referenced your actions as hypocritical. That is hardly an attack on you personaly. There's a subtle difference but perhaps your anger clouds your philosophical sobriety, rendering you too bitter to apprehend the difference. (It must feel very dissolute being a juiced philosopher.)
I don't think you're hypocritical at all. You truly believe that nonsense.
Just do me one favor. If you see a vision or hear voices telling you to sacrifice one of your children, please stop and reason why. Otherwise you will do and your first born might die. Please let me know before you raise the knife. I'm on a first name basis with the people who run hatzolah in your area and can get you treatment quickly. I wouldn't want you spending the next 25 years telling Bernie Madoff that you ended up as his cellmate because god and the Torah told you to do it. That's just too awful a fate for The Jewish Philosopher.

jewish philosopher said...

Larry, if you know of an exception, where I was rude to someone who was not rude to me, please let me know.

Abe, as an atheist you don't need any voice from God to kill. Any whim is enough.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/atheists-in-their-own-words.html

What does killing mean to you anyway? We are all just souless bags of chemicals. Murder is no different than poping a balloon.

Anon1 said...

"What does killing mean to you anyway? We are all just souless bags of chemicals. Murder is no different than poping a balloon."

So that you avoid murder only because God told you not to, makes you MORE MORAL? I don't get it. You idealized slaughtering your kids if God told you. Then you criticise the atheist for actually having a moral sense not to kill people?

Something is a little loose there.

Anonymous said...

Rather than being outraged or offended by the ideas in this post, I think we should all be amused.

These ideas are nothing but a silly and primitive caricature of what Judaism was. It is professed by an insignificant minority of humanity, or of Jews, for that matter.

Think of JP as a harmless curiosity, like the Amish or Quakers, who have no real influence over anybody and whose ideas reflect a bygone world. He belongs to a cult. I'm sure JP thinks the universe revolves around him and his philosophy, as do most cultists.

jewish philosopher said...

"You idealized slaughtering your kids if God told you."

I and my kids were all created by God, therefore He has the right to do as He pleases with us.

"the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD" Job 1:21

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2701.htm#21

"Then you criticise the atheist for actually having a moral sense"

Actually, atheists have no moral sense. Atheists are narcissists, hedonists, nihilists and psychopaths.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/famous-atheist.html

The whole point of being an atheist is to be able to do whatever you want to do without feeling guilty.

If atheists do have any moral sense, it is merely a residual feeling left over from monotheistic parents and grandparents.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/always-let-your-conscience-be-your.html

"It is professed by an insignificant minority of humanity"

Appeal to the people is a logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


Sometimes I wish atheists would say something smart once in a while, just to make me think a little and to spice things up. Instead, the same nonsense, day in day out.... Come on guys! Try a little harder.

Larry Tanner said...

On morality without God:

http://larrytanner.blogspot.com/2009/10/morality-without-god.html

jewish philosopher said...

I think what you're arguing is that people are naturally peaceful and generous - no God needed.

However, if so, I wonder how you explain the horrendous crime, violence and warfare which has characterized human society, whether modern or primitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War#List_of_wars_by_death_toll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Before_Civilization

I think the peaceful Orthodox Jewish community compares favorably with this.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/01/genius-of-judaism-kindness.html

My conclusion - yes, God definitely needed.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/10/god-save-king-why-we-need-both.html

Larry Tanner said...

'I think what you're arguing is that people are naturally peaceful and generous - no God needed.'

No, I am not arguing that people are naturally peaceful and generous.

Yes, I am arguing 'no God needed.'

Whether people are naturally peaceful or naturally warlike, people have morality. They derive morality from several intrinsic and social sources.

jewish philosopher said...

OK, I see. People have a habit of frequently killing each other. But "society" makes us moral.

I wonder what that means or what proof there is of that.

For example, cannibalism was universal among primitive peoples

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism

as it is among chimpanzees by the way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuhXKvxz4-U

Modern man has upgraded to genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Orthodox Jews seem to somehow have broken this habit.

I wonder how you explain that.

Larry Tanner said...

The point is that no God is needed for morality. Even OJs don't need God for morality.

Let me ask you: Imagine that the Talmud did not exist, that it never existed.

Can you be moral? How? How do you know?

Now imagine that neither the Torah nor the Talmud exists. Imagine that they never ever existed.

Can you be moral? How? How do you know?

jewish philosopher said...

"Now imagine that neither the Torah nor the Talmud exists. Imagine that they never ever existed. Can you be moral?"

I would presumably behave about the way people did behave before the Torah was given.

Killing each other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Before_Civilization

eating each other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism

and killing unwanted babies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Paleolithic_and_Neolithic

among other heinous practices.

Larry Tanner said...

"'Now imagine that neither the Torah nor the Talmud exists. Imagine that they never ever existed. Can you be moral?'

I would presumably behave about the way people did behave before the Torah was given."

In this case, I am asking about Tlamud, not Torah.

jewish philosopher said...

Same thing.

jewish philosopher said...

Larry, I think this is may be the mistake you are making:

You believe that being peaceful, honest, kind and sober are the rational things to do, which is true. Therefore, surely, as people become more educated they will live more rationally and therefore more morally.

I’m afraid that I must beg to differ. People, even highly educated and intelligent people, tend to be incredibly irrational.

There were many Nazi leaders who were indisputably intelligent and educated. Most of the attendees of the infamous Wannsee Conference, which planned the extermination of European Jewry, held the title “doctor”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference#List_of_attendees

Your concept of a new rational, moral man seems similar to the concept of the New Soviet man who would be motivated by “selfless collectivism”. In fact I think that is what you are saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man

That wasn’t a big success.

Therefore, clearly we do need God to be good. The belief in a God given morality can control our irrational impulses.

As the Talmud (Bava Basra 16a) states “If God created the evil inclination, He also created the Torah as its antidote”

http://www.come-and-hear.com/bababathra/bababathra_16.html

Larry Tanner said...

"The belief in a God given morality can control our irrational impulses."

The *belief*, maybe. But belief in God and the existence of God are different things.

http://larrytanner.blogspot.com/2005/01/necessary-illusion-of-divine-based.html

jewish philosopher said...

Well, fortunately, He does exist.

Anonymous said...

Without G-d, why should anyone be moral? And how do you know that morality even exists? If it is just something we inherited via evolution, then it is just behavior, and it is no more significant than chimps eating eating each other. If you are moral because of your intuitive moral sense, how do you know that your moral sense is better than the moral sense of your fellow evolutionist, Hitler. Or that of your fellow atheists, Stalin, Mao, etc. And what is your basis for saying your morality is better than the Torah's?

jewish philosopher said...

Another problem is that according to atheism, we have no soul and therefore no free will. Therefore if a person, let's say, kidnaps a baby, tortures him to death and then eats him, there is no reason for him to feel guilty any more than a lighten bolt striking and killing someone should feel guilty. The murderer did what had to do because of his brain chemicals, environment, etc made him do it.

Obviously, such an attitude is crazy.

Larry Tanner said...

Anonymous, I've already answered your question:

http://larrytanner.blogspot.com/2009/10/morality-without-god.html

"according to atheism, we have no soul and therefore no free will"

What makes you think free will is a function of having a soul?

"if a person, let's say, kidnaps a baby, tortures him to death and then eats him, there is no reason for him to feel guilty."

I would prefer that a person not ever commit such an atrocity beforehand rather than feel or not feel guilty about it afterwards.

And why should this person not commit the horrible act you describe? Well, according to you if the person's God tells him to do it he should be unquestionably obey and do it. Indeed, accroding to your model, we all should praise the man.

The atheist model, however, sees it differently. As a human being, the man's inborn capacity for empathy should kick in, bolstered by other intrinsic social impulses and by values impressed on him by his anti-kidnapping/torturing culture. Also, the man should rationally understand that committing such a heinous act will likely result in his being jailed, humiliated and possibly put to death. He will lose his family's honor as well as all standing in the community.

jewish philosopher said...

Free will means the freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes. According to atheism, how exactly is that possible? Aren't we merely a bag of chemicals?

"Indeed, accroding to your model, we all should praise the man."

If God told him to do it. In fact, Judaism forbids murder, even of children, something which amazed the ancient Romans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Judaism

"man's inborn capacity for empathy"

Which unfortunately probably does not exist. Primitive men were cannibals. Modern men are mass killers.

"Also, the man should rationally understand"

Perhaps, but many people are highly irrational.

onionsoupmix said...

Yeah, yeah, same old can't-be-no-morality-without-religion argument.

The gemara in Eruvin clearly says that if the morality laws had not been given in the Torah, humanity would have learned these laws naturally, even from the animals around us. That's why they're mishpatim, not chukim.

What's that you say, JP? This blog only follows the teachings of Lithuanian rabbis and not Talmudic ones? That's what I thought you'd say. Oh, yeah, also that I'm a whore or whatever other term you use for women with whom you can't argue.

Shalmo said...

JP the whole obsession with first-born children whether it was the killing of the first born of egypt, or all the other references to first borns in the Torah......these all come from pagan semetic tribes surrounding judaism's development all of whom stressed the sacrifice of the first born children.

You do know that ancient judaic religion very much demanded first born sacrifices to Yahweh!

Anon1 said...

JP, your "philosophy" about free will is stunningly sophomoric.

Under the biochemical model of brain function (your "bag of chemicals"), behavior is not deterministic but probabilistic. That we hold people accountable for their actions is for purposes of deterrence and social order, and also reflects natural empathy. It has no bearing whatsover on a "soul".

Even religious texts understand that people have personalities and tendencies, and this is no different than the reductionist model. You could ask your same question about free will if god knows everything, since everything is "predetermined".

jewish philosopher said...

" if the morality laws had not been given in the Torah, humanity would have learned these laws naturally"

My little onion sprout, we might learn them but we would not do them without a fear of God. As Abraham pointed out "Because I thought: Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake." Genesis 20:11

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0120.htm#11

"also that I'm a whore"

I don't think I ever called you a whore, onion. I do think that with a little diet, you might get an interview at the Bunny Ranch.

"the whole obsession with first-born children"

I think many cultures value the first born son, perhaps because he will be the first to financially support the parents in their old age.

"your "philosophy" about free will is stunningly sophomoric"

I actually thought it was pretty insightful.

"behavior is not deterministic but probabilistic"

How's that? Remember that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is only relevant at the subatomic level. Most of us have brains a little bigger than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

"That we hold people accountable for their actions is for purposes of deterrence"

Is that what we do with other machines? For example, if a scaffold collapses and kills someone, do we "hold it accountable"? We either fix the scaffold or we throw it in a landfill. Likewise, if a person shoots someone, we should send him to a psychiatric hospital to have his brain fixed. If it can't be, we should give him a cyanide injection and throw him in a dumpster. There is no free will, no bad choice, no crime and no punishment.

"religious texts understand that people have personalities and tendencies"

Which we can choose to use for good or bad. A blood thirsty person can choose a career as a butcher or as a Mafia hit man.

"free will if god knows everything"

God knows, but we still choose. I know what the guy at the next desk is doing, but he is still choosing.

Larry Tanner said...

"'man's inborn capacity for empathy'

Which unfortunately probably does not exist. Primitive men were cannibals. Modern men are mass killers."

I find it amazing that you dismiss the idea that people have an inborn *capacity* for empathy, yet at the same time you wholeheartedly accept the idea that people have an invisible, immortal soul.

"many people are highly irrational"

Indeed, I agree with you on this. But I think people tend to be selectively rational. It's a rare person who is wholly irrational on all things. Even in the best of worlds it would be hard to stay alive very long as a total irrational.

Alex said...

"You do know that ancient judaic religion very much demanded first born sacrifices to Yahweh!"

Shalmo, cite the verse.

jewish philosopher said...

"it would be hard to stay alive very long as a total irrational"

Of course that's true, but that still doesn't stop people from trying.

I was just today watching a movie about John Dillinger. His bank robbery career lasted for a year before he was shot to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dillinger

Anonymous said...

But Larry, if people have an inborn capcity for empathy, why do so many people lack empathy? And again, why is that morality, and not just behavior? And the other stuff you are describing sounds like the social contract, which is just enlightened self-interest. And what's to stop someone from saying he doesn't care about the social contract? and he'lltake hsi chances with a Darwinian approach to life?

Larry Tanner said...

Anonymous, you seem to believe that people who profess to be religious or spiritual or orthodox or whatever are somehow stopped from doing bad things only by virtue of their belief.

Are you seriously saying that were it not for your belief in God you would be out stealing money, raping cattle and setting fire to places that displeased you? Is your reasoning that you might be punished by God the only thing that keeps you from being a total maniac? Is going to shul the only thing that allows you empathize with other people?

There's no such thing as "a Darwinian approach to life." Evolution is a scientific explanation of the past. It's not a doctine for living and it's not something that's complete and finished. I don't go looking to Darwin to tell me how to live my life - that would be stupid to do, in my opinion.

Why do you focus on "inborn capacity for empathy" - and do I need once again to call your attention to the word "capacity? - and not on the rest of what I write? The point is that there are several biological, familial, social, cultural, and individual safegurards that should keep most people from flying off the handle against one another - at least one another in their own circle. I don't think any one factor alone creates the kind of lasting stability that we would like to see.

The more you denigrate humanity and human capabilities, the more you indict the god you say you worship and unquestioningly obey. It's terribly unbecoming, like a Stockholm Syndrome.

If people are so awful, according to you, why isn't your god to be held accountable? If someone makes a defective product and that product causes damage, the manufacturer is helf liable and made to rectify the situation.

Anon1 said...

"How's that? Remember that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is only relevant at the subatomic level. Most of us have brains a little bigger than that."

Subatomic uncertainty means there can be some chemical and genetic uncertainty at a macro level, since those chemical reactions are a function of the subatomic electrical behavior. Physics is too complex for your simple dichotomy that "either there is a soul, or everything is predetermined".

At any rate studies with monozygotic twins demonstrate that despite marked similarities due to genetics and environment, the twins are different personalities, and they are not identical physically either. You don't need a soul to explain this.

"Likewise, if a person shoots someone, we should send him to a psychiatric hospital to have his brain fixed. If it can't be, we should give him a cyanide injection and throw him in a dumpster."

You continue to insist that all humans are naturally psychopaths, and only behave because of God. This is simply false. Besides, real psychopaths don't behave even when there are rules--they violate them.

I still don't get what you are saying. Since according to you, we all have souls, do we have empathy are not? And if we have empathy, why do you insist we're all psychopaths if we don't believe in god?

Anonymous said...

A simple anthropological explaination of morality:

Natural empathy (like other higher animals), combined with social norms and mutual contract which tame our aggressive and selfish tendencies.

No need for a soul or god.

"why do so many people lack empathy? "

For the same reason that some people are tall and some are short. People are different. And only psychopaths don't have any empathy. Everybody else hase SOME empathy, at least for his loved ones.

I don't see how the soul theory answers that question any better.

"And the other stuff you are describing sounds like the social contract, which is just enlightened self-interest."

What's wrong with that? And if I decide to "take my chances" , I might be punished. This happens anyway, even in religious societies.

Anonymous said...

And Larry:

What is a person who lives in a society like Darwinist Nazi Germany suppose to do if it is in the interest of people living in that society to aid in the commission of genocide?

And, y'know, the social contract does allow sucidal people to commit murder.

Nathan

jewish philosopher said...

"If people are so awful, according to you, why isn't your god to be held accountable?"

Larry, first of all, I wish you could refer me to some example of atheistic saints, or of atheistic societies which are flowing with charity, peace and honesty. Apparently there are none.

And evil people perform an important purpose. For one thing, they create a temptation for the righteous, expodentially increasing there reward.

"Subatomic uncertainty means there can be some chemical and genetic uncertainty at a macro level"

That's not true.

"twins are different personalities"

Sure. They have different souls and make different choices.

"Since according to you, we all have souls, do we have empathy are not?"

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

"No need for a soul or god."

So why are there about 20,000 homocides per year on the United States, and none in the Orthodox Jewish community?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

The idea that no government is needed to prevent crime or even that government alone is enough is obviously false.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/10/god-save-king-why-we-need-both.html

Larry Tanner said...

"Larry, first of all, I wish you could refer me to some example of atheistic saints, or of atheistic societies which are flowing with charity, peace and honesty. Apparently there are none."

The whole idea of saints is ridiculous. People ain't perfect, period. Not Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Akiva, Hillel, the Baal Shem Tove, Luria, M.M. Schneerson. None of them were saints. Please don't ask me for atheist saints when you cannot produce a theist saint.

Nathan, you say; "What is a person who lives in a society like Darwinist Nazi Germany suppose to do if it is in the interest of people living in that society to aid in the commission of genocide?

And, y'know, the social contract does allow sucidal people to commit murder."

You are preoccupied with Nazi Germany, but other than this I don't know what point you are trying to make.

Larry Tanner said...

I think it bears repeating that the more you denigrate humanity and human capabilities, the more you indict the god you say you worship and unquestioningly obey, the god you say *deserves* our worship and obedience.

It's terribly unbecoming, like a Stockholm Syndrome.

Larry Tanner said...

Finally, I should say that I am merely voicing my opinion and do not intend to make a personal attack on you, Nathan, JP, or anyone else. Apoligies if comments appear personal.

jewish philosopher said...

"the more you denigrate humanity and human capabilities, the more you indict the god"

Not really.

Behold, this only have I found, that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Ecclesiastes 7:29

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3107.htm#29

I think you're just echoing the classic liberal attitude: Individual responsibility is unthinkable. If I do something bad, blame everyone else. If there is a God, then we should blame Him.

http://reason.com/archives/1998/06/01/blame-society-first

No, I disagree, if you do something bad, it's because you're bad.

Anonymous said...

Larry:

I understood you to be saying that a person should be good because it is in his interest to be good because that way, the society functions. But what if a person is living in a society that rewards things like murder, like Nazxi Germany, or maybe slavery, like ancient Rome, or the pre-civil war
South.

jewish philosopher said...

In my humble opinion, atheism is the most destructive religion in history.

Without a belief in a transcendent moral authority, it would seem likely that mankind would not last more than a century. One half would kill the other half, the survivors would not bother to have children and that would be the end of that. Law enforcement alone would not be able to save mankind nor would any benevolent human instincts. Armed with modern weapons and contraceptives, man would quickly become extinct.

Actually, from an atheistic point view, it makes no difference. The extinction of mankind would simply mean that there would be a few less miniscule bags of chemicals stuck to the surface of an insignificant planet.

Any feelings of ethics or morality which an atheist does have (and I suspect that most don’t have too many) are merely a fading legacy from theistic parents or grandparents.

Larry Tanner said...

"In my humble opinion, atheism is the most destructive religion in history."

Of course, let us not forget that the original post proclaims the "Jewish ideal" to be the uber-fascist Unquestioning Obedience.

My position has been that people should not be unquestioningly obedient to anyone or to any idea or ideology. This injunction, it seems to be, follows naturally from atheism, which views all gods as imaginary.

So, I won't deny you the right to have your opinion and to live out your belief in unquestioningly obeying your leaders and your desires. As far as I'm concerned you are welcome to all the beliefs you want in your home or in your shul.

But as public policy, unquestioning obedience is a dnagerous and odious thing - anti-individual, anti-human, and anti-reason.

I think this topic has run its course.

Anon1 said...

"What is a person who lives in a society like Darwinist Nazi Germany suppose to do if it is in the interest of people living in that society to aid in the commission of genocide? "

Nobody says that they are good. However, it is an unfortunate part of humanity that occasionally it commits evil. But what does that prove? That happens with or without belief in god. People can use any ideology, including religion, for good or bad.

With regard to orthodox Jews-- if you put enough of them together they also produce criminals, as witnessed by recent events. In any case any tight-knit closed community is likely to be internally more peaceful-- but at the cost of personal freedom and tremendous peer pressure.

jewish philosopher said...

Unquestioning obedience to our all knowing Creator is the least we owe him.

And again, in addition to the fact that without God everything is permitted, I don't even understand how morality and ethics make sense to an atheist.

Humans are merely miniscule bags of chemicals stuck to the surface of an insignificant planet. We have no souls, no free will, no choice and if we became extinct it would be of no importance anyway.

As a Jew, I believe that we have souls, have free will, make choices and our existence is of immense significance because God created us in His image and He loves us.

Larry Tanner said...

"Unquestioning obedience to our all knowing Creator is the least we owe him."

I respectfully disagree that we would owe anything at all, even if an all-knowing creator existed.

"And again, in addition to the fact that without God everything is permitted, I don't even understand how morality and ethics make sense to an atheist."

With God everything is permitted. I know you don't understand how morality and ethics make sense to an atheist, but it's been explained already.

"As a Jew, I believe that we have souls, have free will, make choices and our existence is of immense significance because God created us in His image and He loves us."

As an atheist, I have concluded that there are no such things as gods or souls. We have free will, make choices, and live lives of significance because we have families, communities and the ability to expand our knowledge and abilities.

jewish philosopher said...

"I respectfully disagree that we would owe anything at all"

Do you owe your parents anything? If someone saved your life would you owe him anything?

"With God everything is permitted."

Except things which He forbids, for example murder, theft, child abuse, etc etc. I have been able to find only one Orthodox Jew in the United States ever convicted of murder. I know of no Orthodox Jew in history convicted of forcible rape.

"We have free will"

How does a bag of chemicals possess the ability to make choices that are not determined by prior causes?

Larry Tanner said...

"Do you owe your parents anything? If someone saved your life would you owe him anything?"

The question is whether parents have a right to demand anything in return from their children. As a parent, I say "no." My children owe me nothing. On their own, they may decide to thank me in their own ways - and not necessarily in ways that I myself would choose. I didn't have children in order to force them to love and respect me.

God permits absolutely any and every type of behavior imaginable. Holy books can justify and validate any human depravity.

"How does a bag of chemicals possess the ability to make choices that are not determined by prior causes?"

I am not sure what you are asking here. Do you literally mean "bag of chemicals" or are you exaggerating? Are you aware that human cogitive abilities are quite often made probabilistically, which is to say that existing states often narrow the range of possible responses we can take?

On your point about OJs, crime and rape - maybe this is correct. It depends on how you see the data and who counts as an OJ and the geography and time and so forth. But assuming the statistic is correct - so what? There are certainly more criminals in prison right now who are professed religious than there are criminals who are professed atheists. What specific point do you think can be made?

jewish philosopher said...

"Holy books can justify and validate any human depravity."

And so can secular books. See Mein Kampf.

"Do you literally mean "bag of chemicals""

If man has no soul, so what else are we.

"human cogitive abilities are quite often made probabilistically"

They should be determined by prior causes according to atheism.

"more criminals in prison right now who are professed religious"

First of all, I am not defending all religion, especially since I believe atheism is also a religion.

What I would be curious to know however is: What is the percentage of convicted felons who were attending weekly religious services at the time of their felony compared to the percentage of Americans as a whole who attend weekly religious services?

This seems like a simple enough question and an interesting one, however as far as I know no social scientist has bothered to investigate it, I suspect because of atheistic bias.

My guess is: Felons 2%, Americans as a whole 20%. But I'm just guessing.

My brother, who is a cop, says he doesn't arrest a lot of regular church goers.

Abe said...

>>>Do you owe your parents anything? If someone saved your life would you owe him anything?

Sure. I'm always greatful to my parents whwnever I see them. Fortunately, evolutionary forces have reduced man's proclivity to be beholden to supernatural, invisible entities. That's why I owe god nothing because he's never directly requested my gratitude. ( If he really wants my obeisance, he knows where I live.) I suppose there will always be credulous folks that are indebted to gods, ghosts and space aliens. Man will never be totaly free from superstitious appeals.

>>>Except things which He forbids, for example murder, theft, child abuse, etc etc.

Except, if you happen to be an Amalekite, Hittite, Jebusite etc.
Or live in an insular chsidishe community where pedophelia and sexual abuse is harbored and protected so as to fulfill hasehm's perverse command against moser (becoming an informant to the civil authorities).

>>>How does a bag of chemicals possess the ability to make choices that are not determined by prior causes.

Perhaps you wish to identify yourself as bag of chemicals, but most rational people do not not.

jewish philosopher said...

"That's why I owe god nothing because he's never directly requested my gratitude."

And without "directly requesting" you owe your parents nothing either? You're a nice guy, Abe.

"Man will never be totaly free from superstitious appeals."

The biggest superstition is that Darwinism nonsense.

"Except, if you happen to be an Amalekite, Hittite, Jebusite etc."

Which no one has been for a few thousand years.

"Or live in an insular chsidishe community where pedophelia and sexual abuse is harbored and protected so as to fulfill hasehm's perverse command against moser (becoming an informant to the civil authorities)."

You forgot about how Jews fabricated gas chambers for the sake of HOLOCAUST BU$INE$$. Or does your Antisemitism only apply to Jews who practice Judaism?

"you wish to identify yourself as bag of chemicals, but most rational people do not not"

Only nutty fruit cake atheists like you do.

Abe said...

>>>And without "directly requesting" you owe your parents nothing either? You're a nice guy, Abe.

No. I owe them love and respect because they exist, gave me life and nurtured me. No such evidence is attributable to god.

>>>The biggest superstition is that Darwinism nonsense.

Not likely but anything is possible. However, Darwin doesn't promote preposterous stoicsm like kosher vegetbles and kosher water. So, I think I'll stick with Darwin rather then deliver my mind to corrosive fundamentalism. Who knows what prohibitions torah-addled gedolim might next foist on their credulous disciples? Kosher underwear with their blessed? hashgcha?

>>>You forgot about how Jews fabricated gas chambers for the sake of HOLOCAUST BU$INE$$. Or does your Antisemitism only apply to Jews who practice Judaism?

You're really getting boring with holocaust denial comparisons.
Perhaps you havn't read this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/nyregion/14abuse.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion

Or this:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c36_a16886/News/New_York.html

Quite an indictment against the chasidic community and their accomodation of pedophelia. But why should you care if god doesn't either.

jewish philosopher said...

"Darwin doesn't promote preposterous stoicsm like kosher vegetbles and kosher water."

Of course Abe, anything you, an unemployed moron, cannot understand is nonsense.

"Quite an indictment against the chasidic community"

I don't see the indictment. What's happening is quite simple. Thanks to the Internet, the Orthodox world is witnessing an infestation of secret atheists who are doing who knows what when they think no one is looking. See "Unchosen" by Hella Winston for details.

http://www.amazon.com/Unchosen-Hidden-Lives-Hasidic-Rebels/dp/0807036269

Therefore Jews, real Jews, are slamming these phonies into prison.

And isn't true that Orthodox Jews don't use the police. That's nonsense.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/16/nyregion/hasidic-volunteers-help-find-suspect-in-beating.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

We just don't usually need to.

Larry Tanner said...

"I don't see the indictment. What's happening is quite simple. Thanks to the Internet, the Orthodox world is witnessing an infestation of secret atheists who are doing who knows what when they think no one is looking. See "Unchosen" by Hella Winston for details.

Therefore Jews, real Jews, are slamming these phonies into prison."

This is the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

jewish philosopher said...

It's just the way it is. It's not that all of a sudden Orthodox Jews learned how to dial 911.

Abe said...

>>>Of course Abe, anything you, an unemployed moron, cannot understand is nonsense.

You don't have to be unemployed or a moron or even both to bellow for kosher water and vegetables. . But then again, if you're a chareidi, it sure helps.
Atheists understand chareidi irrational bluster fairly well.

>>>And isn't true that Orthodox Jews don't use the police. That's nonsense.

From: http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c36_a16886/News/New_York.html

"Speaking from the bench the day after Yom Kippur at the sentencing of Yona Weinberg, who received a 13-month jail term, Judge Reichbach said he found it "troubling" that the community "seeks to blame, indeed punish (pedophile) victims who seek justice from civil society, according to a court transcript. He went on to add that the Orthodox community's religious courts are "inappropriate" and "incapable" of dealing with criminal matters."

What we are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. Sexual abuse and pedophelia is epidemic in the chareid community.
Its not surprising that rabbis and civic leaders defended this pedophile. Most of them do. But would you expect anythng different from men that dance only with men? Or use the mikva as a pretext to promenade naked. Sure sounds like the gay bathouses of the 80's.

jewish philosopher said...

"the community "seeks to blame"

What basis does he have to say that? I wonder if when he sentences a black pedophile, he comments on the black community's absent fathers and promiscuious mothers as being a problem.

"Sexual abuse and pedophelia is epidemic in the chareid community."

Abe your very misinformed. Jews don't have sex with children, we eat them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews

I think you should stick to Holocaust denial. Branching out into other topics is confusing you.

Alex said...

JP wrote: "in addition to the fact that without God everything is permitted"

and Larry Tanner wrote: "With God everything is permitted."

Somewhere in between JP's /almost/ true statement and Larry Tanner's headscratcher is the thought by the following Orthodox rabbi:
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/705187/Rabbi%20Yitzchak%20Blau/Ivan%20Karamazov%20Revisited:%20The%20Moral%20Argument%20for%20Religious%20Belief

Abe said...

>>>What basis does he have to say that? I wonder if when he sentences a black pedophile, he comments on the black community's absent fathers and promiscuious mothers as being a problem.

Why would he? There is no evidence that absent fathers or promiscuous mothers promote pedophelia in any racial community.
You fabricate comparisons out of thin air. Just more of your shopworn displays of rancid inferences derived from faulty logic.

OTOH,"...Supreme Court Judge lashed out at the offender's Orthodox community for "a communal attitude that seems to impose greater opprobrium on the victims than the perpetrator..."...Making his comments before a courtroom packed with supporters of the 31-year-old Weinberg - among them, according to his defense attorney, school principals, two rabbis and civic leaders - the judge spoke of receiving more than 90 letters attesting to Weinberg's character and innocence. None of the letters, the judge noted, "displays any concern or any sympathy or even any acknowledgement for these young victims which, frankly, I find shameful...."
How disgusting!
Protecting pedophelia seems to be a source of pride within the chareidi community. Hashem yerachem.

jewish philosopher said...

I'm just wondering whether this esteemed judge takes it upon himself to criticize other entire communities - black, Hispanic, etc - when one member of the community is acquitted of eight criminal counts, including a felony, but still faces up to two years in prison for misdemeanors, which will probably actually be probation.

HASHEM YERACHEM! What a crime wave!!!

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/06/25/2009-06-25_bar_mitzvah_tutor_guilty_in_molests.html

I really think you should worry more about your own community Abe. I'm not sure if you've heard, however most secular Jews are espionage agents for the Mossad. ABE WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT THIS!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33386639/ns/us_news-security/

What we are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. Espionage is epidemic in the atheist community.

lakeood guy said...

Jp,

The frum community protects and hides pedophiles.

For example there is an individual who is a convicted sex offender (he was convicted of mollesting a non jewish child thats how he got himself registerd). His name is Yehuda Oratz and he lives in lakewood in the midst of the frum community and no one says anything, as a matter of fact rabbi zions brought a bunch of kids over to his house a couple years ago to wrap chanuka presents

It is a fact that frum people do not usally file criminal complaints against one another even if there is a solid basis to do so

jewish philosopher said...

Sure, in the ultra-puritanical sexually repressed ultra-Orthodox world, parents are just thrilled when their toddlers are raped by neighbors. Why on earth would they complain? It's just another wonderful experience for their kids.

lakewood guy said...

Check the facts, look up Yehuda Oratz and call Rabbi Zions from Tashbar of lakewood.

I have freinds who's parents have let their kids play at this guys house also, but I cannot (or will not whatever) put their names here for you to call them.
This is just one example there are many more.

Draw whatever conclusions you want, but you havent addressed any of my points.

jewish philosopher said...

Twelve years ago, he was convicted of endangering the welfare of a child. It had something to do with assaulting a female under 13.

https://www6.state.nj.us/LPS_spoff/individualResults.jsp

And you're saying that Rabbi Mordecai Zions, a Lakewood principal of a boys' school, brought students to visit him about two years ago. Probably he came with the students.

This proves that Orthodox Jews will not report sex offenders to the police.

According to recent media reports, maybe all secular Jews are crooks (Bernie Madoff) or Israeli spies (Stewart David Nozette).

lakewood guy said...

For the most part they wont. Another example happend just recently when Yossi kolko was arrested.

Rabbi Y. Belski came out saying that it was ossur for the person to go to the police and that the person that did was a "moiser" for doing so.

This was posted on the lakewood scoop at the time, but was taken down ("al pi daas torah" to use their wording) however I beleive this is still his opinon and you can call him to confirm it if you would like.

lakewood guy said...

"Probably he came with the students."

And that would make it O.K.???? You wouldnt have a problem with your son's principle taking him to a convicted sex offfender's home??

jewish philosopher said...

Yosef Kolko was charged but not at this time convicted of anything.

Now can you explain to my why the secular community is harboring crooks and spies?

jewish philosopher said...

"And that would make it O.K.????"

I'm not quite sure what you want. Every time someone accuses an Orthodox Jew of touching a child, the community should lynch him, otherwise we are condoning child rape?

And incidentally, many people have criticized American harsh sex offender laws.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164614

Unless you have some sort of proof that rabbis have tampered with witnesses and obstructed justice, please take your antisemitism elsewhere. Thank you.

lakewood guy said...

Jp said,

"the community should lynch him, otherwise we are condoning child rape?"

No, but you shouldnt condemn the accuser for going to the police and that is exactly what rabbi belski (and many like him) did and do.

I will ask you again, You wouldnt have a problem with your son's principle taking him to a convicted sex offfender's home??


Jp, said

"Now can you explain to my why the secular community is harboring crooks and spies?"

Does the "secular community" (and there is no such thing btw) condemn people who go to the police about crooks and spies?

jewish philosopher said...

I just don't quite see how what you're saying, that Kolko and Oritz prove that child rape is common in the Orthodox community (and there is no such thing btw) is different than an American Nazi who will say that Madoff and Nozette prove that the American Jewish community is full of spies and billionaire thieves.

According to Nazis, of course Jews never turn each other in plus they have immense government influence, so only a few ever are caught.

You can fabricate any bigoted conspiracy theory you want to.

As far as sex offenders in general go, I don't think public schools are so safe. Check out this character for example:

In 1984, Karr married 12-year-old Quientana Ray Shotts.[16] Karr evidently told Quientana to lie about her age, and took her out of Alabama, where they both lived, to marry her. Karr and Shotts lived together as a couple in Hamilton after their wedding, and Karr "was abusing her every way there was," according to Melissa Shotts.[17] Court records show that, in 1985, a 13-year-old girl sought an annulment of what the records call a "ceremonial marriage," saying she had feared for her life when she agreed to marry Karr in 1984. Karr admitted to the court that she was a minor, but disputed she had been 13. The marriage was annulled.

Karr had been working as a substitute teacher in Petaluma, but Bob Raines, the Superintendent-Principal at Wilson School in Petaluma said he was an ineffective substitute teacher: "He just seemed like somebody who thought he wanted to be a teacher... After a day, I could see it just wasn't for him."[24] He worked from December 2000 through June 2001 in as many as 14 schools in the Petaluma, Old Adobe, Liberty and Wilmar elementary districts.[25] His last paycheck for teaching work in Petaluma was issued in April 2001, the same month that he made his first court appearance for the aforementioned pornography charges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mark_Karr#Marriages

lakewood guy said...

Jp said,

"just don't quite see how what you're saying, that Kolko and Oritz prove that child rape is common in the Orthodox community (and there is no such thing btw) is different than an American Nazi who will say that Madoff and Nozette prove that the American Jewish community is full of spies and billionaire thieves."

No, what i was saying was that the leaders of the frum community usally cover up after members of thier community and critisize those who go to the police about them.

I also brought you examples of these things occuring.

jewish philosopher said...

And this is called an antisemitic conspiracy theory. Jews are really bad, but cover it all up so no one knows.

Maybe you should check out the 9/11 or Holocaust conspiracies if you're into this.

jewish philosopher said...

Lakewood, here's something really cool: UFO cover ups.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/ufocover-up

There are really cover ups all over, but you don't know because they're covered up.

lakewood guy said...

"Lakewood, here's something really cool: UFO cover ups."


I dont really get what your point is.

Is it that since UFO cover up conspiracy theorys are not credible, therefore anybody that says that sombody is covering somthing up from anyone is not credible?

Thats not a very good argument.

jewish philosopher said...

What I'm saying is that the percentage of Orthodox Jews who are convicted sex offenders is far smaller than the percentage of Americans in general.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

It's also obvious that Orthodox Jews would not sit idly and watch their children being raped by their neighbors.

Regarding the idea that it is far easier for Orthodox Jews to escape conviction due to a rabbinical conspiracy and cover up, that is about as plausible as other conspiracy and cover up theories such as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

9/11 conspiracy theories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

and UFO conspiracy theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_conspiracy_theory

lakewood guy said...

Jp,

If you were to ask most orthodox rabbis if you should go to the police with criminal complaints about another yid right away they will usally tell you no. If you are really part of the fru m community you know this

jewish philosopher said...

lakewood, obviously you don't know what you're talking about. Read this for example.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/16/nyregion/hasidic-volunteers-help-find-suspect-in-beating.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

We don't go to the police too often because we have no need to.

Unless you have some solid proof of a conspiracy and cover up, I'm going to have to file this one together with all rest.

Swine flu is also a conspiracy, you know.

http://retardzone.com/2009/04/27/top-10-swine-flu-conspiracy-theories/

Alex said...

About swine flu, please tell your less intelligent readers that you were only joking by providing that link.

lakewood guy said...

You know as well as i do that they had exsuasted evrey other way of dealing with this internally, before they went to police in the case you mention.

jewish philosopher said...

Why don't you try going to Brooklyn and have sex with some Orthodox child. If you're still alive to tell about it, email me a video.

jewish philosopher said...

Just incidentally, Judge Reichbach who said he found it "troubling" that the Orthodox community "seeks to blame, indeed punish victims who seek justice from the … civil society," was in his youth a left wing radical. He is astonished that his brother became Orthodox.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/01/nyregion/public-lives-a-judge-in-the-mold-of-hoffman-abbie-that-is.html

I think it's fair to assume that he is prejudiced against Orthodox Jews. His opinion about the Orthodox probably is about as valid as the opinion of a former KKK member regarding blacks.

Abe said...

>>>His opinion about the Orthodox probably is about as valid as the opinion of a former KKK member regarding blacks.

Nah, sexual abuse and pedophelia is rare in the chareidi community.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/nyregion/14abuse.html?_r=1&hp

...Now, a growing number of haredi Jews in Brooklyn say they do not think they can get justice from the rabbinical courts, which in several high-profile cases have exonerated people who were later criminally convicted of child abuse...Prosecutors say that since last year 40 minors have agreed to testify about abuse in court, if necessary...But Ben Hirsch, founder of Survivors for Justice, a New York group whose members include haredi Jews molested as children in communities nationwide, said the clandestine handling of molestation cases had kept leaders from dealing with the problem and made it easier for predators...

Nah, all those judges are just leftwing anti-semites.

jewish philosopher said...

Well, if Ben Hirsch said it, then it must be true. I really apologize.

Just by the way, who is Ben Hirsch?

What I thought was interesting is the beginning of the article:

"For decades, prosecutors in Brooklyn routinely pursued child molesters from every major ethnic and religious segment of the borough’s diverse population. Except one. Of some 700 child sexual abuse cases brought in an average year, few involved members of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community — about 180,000 followers of Hasidic and other sects who make up the largest such cluster outside Israel. Some years, there were one or two arrests, or none."

All these decades while America was being saturated with sexual abuse of minors, did the New York Times ever write about the miracle of one community being free from this problem? Did the Times ever become curious about why we are immune? Only when a tragically thanks to the influence of Internet atheists like you there are a few convictions, sudden it's newsworthy. Interesting.

Abe said...

>>>All these decades while America was being saturated with sexual abuse of minors, did the New York Times ever write about the miracle of one community being free from this problem?

You make me laugh. Free from sexual abuse? Hardly. It was being hidden under the rug bu acquiescing and accomadative rabbeim who protected pious pedophiles. That's the awful dirty dark secret in the chareidi community, just as the Catholic exposes of sexual abuse was sept under the rug until recently.

You are as much to blame for the sexual abuse in the community as the sexual deviant himself, in that you you blindly assert that there is no problem. You are a choteh and machteh et harabim. You'll be judged for your foul denials in the next world. (If there is one)
Shame !

jewish philosopher said...

Abe, I know how fascinating it is for you to discuss a few alleged Hassidic c—k suckers, however I would like to fry some bigger fish, so to speak.

What’s really going on in the secular American Jewish community?

You know what I mean - all the billionaire fraudsters and Israeli espionage agents. And who owns the American economy? The head of the Federal Reserve is always a Jew and Jews control Wall Street.

Who’s selling all of America’s secrets to the Russians and Chinese via Israel?

You’ve got the Jewish Federation, the United Jewish Appeal, the World Zionist Organization and the Israeli secret service, all coordinated by the Israeli government in Jerusalem.

Madoff and Nozette are just the tip of the iceberg.

Come on Abe, spill the beans. How many spies do you know? What’s the real story? Now that the whole HOLOCAUST BU$INE$$ is dying out together with the phony survivors, what new scams are you secular Jews coming up with?

Tova said...

JP, do you go by an alternate name of David?

jewish philosopher said...

No. You can check here for my bio.

http://jacobstein-mystory.blogspot.com/2007/03/more-about-me.html

Tova said...

Ok. I was just wondering...the way you write reminds me of somebody who was insulted me on FrumSatire. Carry on.

"The Righteous Rasha"

jewish philosopher said...

I'm not familiar with FrumSatire, however it would not surprise me if some brilliant young man would have a style similar to mine.

Abe said...

>>>Abe, I know how fascinating it is for you to discuss a few alleged Hassidic c—k suckers, however I would like to fry some bigger fish, so to speak.

Were it only a few, there wouldn't such be such a great outcry. Like Catholic sexual abuse, what has been exposed is only the tip of the iceberg. But the chareidi coverups are almost as bad as the sexual crimes against children. What an indictment against orthodoxy and god that permitted such crimes to proliferate!
Why would anyon clear thinking person want to be part of that desolutory religion?

jewish philosopher said...

"Like Catholic sexual abuse"

Is this blog called the "Catholic Philosopher"?

Don't change the subject Abe: How many spies do you know? And how much money have you pocketed from the banks and Federal Reserve? I'm not letting you off so easily.

Abe said...

>>>Don't change the subject Abe: How many spies do you know? And how much money have you pocketed from the banks and Federal Reserve? I'm not letting you off so easily.

I know them all and pocketed every last cent.

If that confession disburdens your psychotic concience, then you need more psychiatric help than is available on line.
See a reputable shrink, perferably not chareidi.

jewish philosopher said...

So conspiracy theories are crazy. I'm glad to hear that from you.

Tova said...

Well, you should be disturbed. He flung insults at people who didn't deserve them, in much the same way that you do.

jewish philosopher said...

He may be a genius who has trouble having patience with the common masses of heretical morons. It's not always easy.

Tova said...

Maybe. The only problem is that the people who disagreed with him were neither heretical nor moronic.

jewish philosopher said...

I don't know him.

Takis Konstantopoulos said...

What is this little thing these people in your photo are wearing on their heads? Is it a little camera? A toy hat? What is it?

jewish philosopher said...

No, it's called tefillin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin