Sunday, September 13, 2009

Atheism is Great – a Guest Post

The following is an extract from the private notebook of Professor Christopher Twitchens, British atheist, scholar and journalist.


[the professor briefly resting from his philosophical studies]

Atheists: The world’s most peaceful and generous people. Their minds purified of all superstition, they occupy themselves with issues of world peace, social justice and scientific advancement. Just once in a while atheists enjoy a drop of whisky for well earned refreshment. (See photo above.)

Evolution: History’s greatest scientific discovery. Charles Darwin took a big vat of chemicals and exposed it to radiation. After a couple of days, bacteria appeared. After a few more days, worms appeared. Then fish, lizards, mice, monkeys and finally people swam out of the vat. This resulted in the formula: C + R + T = P, meaning “chemicals, plus radiation, plus time equals people”. No God needed, making atheism a scientific fact.

Communists: Communists are not true atheists. No one who does anything bad is a true atheist. The mind of a true atheist is filled with science. Science is good. Therefore a true atheist cannot do anything bad.

Religion: Religious people come in two types: Christians, who live in cabins in the Appalachian Mountains and spend their time shooting each other and Muslims who live in caves in Afghanistan and enjoy blowing up airliners. These days pretty much everyone else is an atheist, thank God.

The Jewish Question: The question is where did this tribe of loudmouthed cheapskates come from? No one really knows the truth, because Jews are such pathological liars, however apparently it started with a sadist named Ezra. He gathered together a community of masochists called “Jews” and gave them a Torah - a scroll of laws so difficult that it was guaranteed to make their lives miserable. Being masochists the Jews loved it. In fact they even added on to it another huge pile of even more excruciatingly painful laws called the Talmud. Jews loved that even more and to this day millions of them still study this Talmud. These are some seriously crazy weirdoes. After the Romans drove them out of the Middle East, the Jews migrated to Europe where they spent the next couple of thousand years cheating Christians until the Christians finally killed most of them in the 1940’s. The survivors are today mostly either shooting Arab kids in Palestine or marrying gentiles in America. One way or another, hopefully they will soon be extinct.

132 comments:

Anonymous said...

How many atheists do you actually know and talk to in real life?

jewish philosopher said...

A few. However unfortunately most people dislike discussing religion face to face. In fact, all the atheist bloggers I know of are anonymous.

Anonymous said...

Why would anyone reveal their identity and atheistic beliefs to you? You've said on more than one occaision that atheists deserve to be put to death for their non-belief. No one in their right mind should take the chance on the probability that you might act on your demented fundamentalist convictions.
BTW, have you ever worked for the post office ?

jewish philosopher said...

Well, don't get all huffy. And by the way atheists don't talk about killing rabbis, they do kill rabbis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union#Judaism

Anonymous said...

Well, I guess you and the soviet commissars have something in common -- mass murder. They oppressed believers and I bet you're just foaming at the mouth to employ their savage blueprint against atheists.
Its a perfect model for your fundamentalist society.
Are you positive that you never worked at the post office?

jewish philosopher said...

I've already written about anonymous bloggers and their motives.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-i-dont-respect-anonymous-bloggers.html

So are you basically trying to affirm what I've written in this post?

Obviously, this post is satirical, however it's actually not far at all from the truth.

You seem to be basically agreeing with my fictional atheist professor "Jews are some seriously crazy weirdoes." "Atheists: The world’s more peaceful and generous people"

Anonymous said...

Harris did say that it should be legal to kill believers asa sort of preemptive self-defense. Sine atheists are more likely to commit mass murder, then, by Harris's reasoning, it should be legal to kill atheists. Good thing for atheists I, and most theists, disagree with Harris.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, i forgot to leave my name on the last post. My bad.

Nathan

Anonymous said...

No, not all Jews are seriously crazy weirdos. But as in all religiou societies, a large minority are. Jacob Stein, you are the exception that proves my point.
Are you 100% positive that you never worked for the post office ?

jewish philosopher said...

"But as in all religiou societies, a large minority are."

Except your religion. Because your religion is the right one. It's so obviously true, your religion is not even a religion, it's just truth. Sure, I understand that.

Anonymous said...

Annonymous 12:07:00 PM,

I couldn't agree more. How ironic that Stein seeks to pattern his religious society after the dark and evil Soviet regime that he deplores.
I suppose its just his latent self loathing trying to come to terms with reality.
How sad that fundamentlist orthodoxy has come to this.

Anonymous said...

To the extent that you are incapable of scientificaly, historicaly, logicaly and rationaly disproving non-believer representations, we atheists will always be the paradigm for truth.
In the meantime, may I suggest that you direct your energies to extracting a new chidush from Shor Shenagach es Haparah. You'll find it a lot more satisfying than proclaiming the wisdom of Stalin.

jewish philosopher said...

"Stein seeks to pattern his religious society after the dark and evil Soviet regime that he deplores"

Evil? According to atheism, what could be considered evil and why? And it certainly is amusing to be lectured by an atheist about tolerance and morality. What's next? Is the American Nazi Party going to have seminars about diversity and human rights?

"To the extent that you are incapable of scientificaly"

To the extent that you are incapable of spelling, you will always be a moron.

Anonymous said...

What could be considered evil?
How about mass murder of 20 million soviet citizens. Stalin opened his chumash to Deuteronomy 20:17 and of course got his idea from the Torah. Hashem directed his chosen few to kill all the Hittites, Hivites, Amorites, Jebusites, Perrizites, etc. etc and Stalin was inspired to do the same. He probably supposed that it was not considered genocide when god motivates you act on his command.
And, ... ah yes, the final refuge of a logicaly impaired fundie, resting their entire argument on a typo by their opponent.
How benevolent is hashem to have imparted such vacuity on his chosen few.

Anonymous said...

What I find interesting is that whenever I call the attention of an atheist to the fact that, if they succeed in making the whole world atheistic, then we can expect to see a marked increase in mass murder, the ineveitable answer is that as long as the murders aren't done in the name of atheism, it is okay. So atheists believe that mass murder is okay, as long as the motivating factor isn't atheism.

jewish philosopher said...

"How about mass murder of 20 million soviet citizens."

Explain to me how that is fundimentally different from the murder of 20 billion bacteria when my maid cleaned the bathroom yesterday.

Anonymous said...

But Stalin was an atheist.

Anonymous said...

>>> Explain to me how that is fundimentally different from the murder of 20 billion bacteria when my maid cleaned the bathroom yesterday.

I won't impugn your intellect because you misspelled fundamentally. I'll leave your reverence for logical sophistry to play that role.

If you can't recognize the difference, fundamental or otherwise, between the eradication of bacteria and extermination of human beings; whether through the murderous enterprise of an atheist or the holy agent of god, then you need serious psychological therapy.
I do not offer this counsel as sarcasm or disparagement. Kol yisroel areivim zeh lazeh. Get help.

jewish philosopher said...

Of course you can't answer my question, my anonymous little troll, because there is no answer.

In your sick, diseased, addiction ridden mind, people and bacteria are exactly the same - purposeless bags of organic chemicals formed by blind chance.

Anonymous said...

You are wrong. People and bacteria are not the same.

jewish philosopher said...

No, according to atheists bacteria are probably better. They aren't religious like most people are.

jewish philosopher said...

As I said above, it certainly is amusing to be lectured by an atheist about tolerance and morality. What's next? Is the American Nazi Party going to have seminars about diversity and human rights?

Anonymous said...

You are wrong again.
Bacteria are not better than people. Please don't lie about atheists. We are fond of most people, unlike some religious zanies that want to kill all those with whom they disagree. As I have noted before, god wanted to commit genocide against the Hittites, Hivites, Amorites, Jebusites, Perrizites, etc. I suppose he valued them less than people.
It is unfortunate that you are unable distinguish the relative value between bacteria and human beings.
Get help.

Alex said...

Anonymous, I believe JP is trying to say the following:
"Sure, you SAY you see the difference in value between bacteria and human beings, but you haven't explained, nor can you, ON WHAT BASIS do you put one on a higher level than the other, given that both are "purposeless bags of organic chemicals formed by blind chance."

jewish philosopher said...

"We are fond of most people"

You mean fond of eating them, like the atheist Jeff Dahmer? I believe that.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/atheists-in-their-own-words.html

"unlike some religious zanies that want to kill all those with whom they disagree."

You mean what Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and other atheists have been busy doing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

"It is unfortunate that you are unable distinguish the relative value between bacteria and human beings."

Oh, I certainly am. I know that human's have a soul.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/09/soul-our-greatest-gift.html

But what about you, my little friend? What essential difference do you see which would make killing a man evil but not killing a worm? Obviously none, but you're smart enough not to admit that.

Incidentally, why does Judaism bother you? Does it really upset you seeing people who are not failures like you are? You poor thing.

Anonymous said...

Goid commanded the destruction of the Canaanites because they were very bad people who did very bad things like burning babies alive to Moloch, not because they had less intrinsic value.

Nathan

Anonymous said...

"What essential difference do you see which would make killing a man evil but not killing a worm?"

There is no 'essential' difference, only the one we impose.

jewish philosopher said...

So there is no difference. That's why atheists feel free to kill people if they think they'll get away with it, unless they retain some sort of residual religious feelings.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/always-let-your-conscience-be-your.html

Anonymous said...

Alex,
Thank you for deciphering Stein's inarticulate rants. It's difficult to divine his ruminations when he doesn't dispense a cause and effect hypothesis.
Atheists and believers have some things in common. We are all capable of egregious sins. The god of the torah occasionaly commissioned his ancient people to engage in unjustified killing and murderous genocide. And atheistic madmen like Stalin and Pol Pot are no better than the god of the torah who engaged in similar crimes. The commonality ends there because atheists have no god to inspire mayhem and terror.
Now, if you say that god cannot posssibly indulge in immorality, then you must vindicate his actions by employing tortured reasoning and sophistic logic, all which Mr. Stein is very much endowed. Thus, since Jeffery Dahmer was an atheist and a canibal, all atheists are canibals.
Atheists assert that morality does not necessarily arise through torah pedagogy. Humanity rises to a moral paradigm, not through false imprimatur of belief in god, but through fits and starts by distinguishing good from evil. We need no god to inculcate us to have a sense of meaning and value in life. To do so is to ignore god's criminal instructions and actions.

Anonymous said...

There's no 'essential' difference but we are not free to kill people at will. We agree to live in a society together and share basic assumptions of individual rights and freedoms.

In this way, we impose difference. Maybe to make the imposition more impressive, some would say, "these laws come from the gods, therefore the laws must be obeyed."

There's no difference between atheists and theists. You theists just use your narrow conception of gods to legitimize your sense of superiority and your hatred of other human beings.

Anonymous said...

But how do you know whats's good? How do you know Hitler was wrong? Is it your moral sense? Hitler had a moral sense, too. And where did your moral sense come from? Did it evolve? If that is the case, then it isn't morality, it is just primate behavior. It is no more or less moral than when chimps eat each other.


Nathan

jewish philosopher said...

Translation of anonymous 8:43:00 AM:

Atheists murder millions because they logically do not see any reason not too.

However, Jews are even worse, because even though they never really kill anybody, however they did make up a story about their ancestors having murdered people a few thousand years ago.

Imaginary murder is really a big crime and proves Judaism is bad; actual murder of millions of people is not a big crime and does not reflect badly on atheism.

Question: How much alcohol and/or heroin do you have to consume for this drivel to make any sense? I would say, quite a bit.

anonymous 8:45:00 AM (how about names?)

"In this way, we impose difference"

You mean - I don't murder because I might get caught. But what if you won't? For example, there are seldom convictions for stranger homicides in the United States. Hence, with the lack of belief in God and hell, we find serial killers popping up all over.


Here are a couple of relevant posts:

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/10/god-save-king-why-we-need-both.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/02/massacre-of-midianites.html

Anonymous said...

"You mean - I don't murder because I might get caught. But what if you won't? For example, there are seldom convictions for stranger homicides in the United States. Hence, with the lack of belief in God and hell, we find serial killers popping up all over."

Nope. I don't murder because it violates social rules that we all agree to live by. It violates the rights and freedoms that we agree are the equal share of all people.

All theists do is use some "god" to legitimize a sense of superiority and a hatred of other human beings.

Atheists and theists know that Hitler - a Catholic and supported by the Catholic church - was wrong for the very same reason.

Signed,
Jacob Stein

Anonymous said...

I think it's very telling that the concept of god isn't enough. There has to be a concept of hell too.

Theology is sick, pornographic fantasy for repressed and troubled individuals. No wonder so many rabbis and priests molest children!

Signed,
Jacob Stein

Anonymous said...

But what if soemone choosed nto to live by the rules. Or what of a soceity chooses to allow stuff you consider immoral, like Nazi Germany?

And Hitler was raised a Catholic, but in hois book "Mein Kampf" vol.1 chapter 11, he mde it abudantly clear that his core belief system was Darwinism. and in Vol. 2 Chapter 2, he wrote that he took a pragmatic approach to religion, that it was good for orhganizing society bu that it was time to replace it with race based Darwinism. And recently released OSS documents reveal that the Nazi's were planning on eliminating the church in Germany.

Anonymous said...

And I'm not sure where you get this idea that "so many" priests and rabbis are child molesters compared to the general pupulation. Now idf you look at the statistics, you'll find that the group with "so many" child molesters is public school teachers. I happen to be one, (public school teacher, not a molester.

Nathan.

jewish philosopher said...

Dear anonymous signing Jacob Stein:

First of all, let me say that as an adult, whatever Adolf Hitler believed, he did not believe in a personal God. The proof is that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that he ever prayed as adult, even during his last few days in the Berlin bunker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

Anyway, I am not a Catholic and I’m not defending that religion.

And which rabbi has been convicted of a sex crime? None that I know of. Yehudah Kolko was an elementary school teacher convicted of child endangerment.

http://www.vosizneias.com/15192/2008/04/14/flatbush-ny-rabbi-kolko-pleads-guilty/

But I guess atheists can lie if they want to. Without God, everything is permitted.

And I understand your anger about hell. That’s a really buzzkill.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/buzzkill.html

Having said that, I think what you are trying to say is this:

Let’s say you have two people.

One is an atheist. He hates and murders certain people, let’s say rabbis, not for any idealistic reason, but rather because they oppose him politically.

(See here for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union#Judaism)

Another person is a Jew. He hates, but doesn’t touch, certain people, let’s say atheists, and he does so for an idealistic reason. He believes that God wants him to.

(See this post http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/12/good-hatred.html)

In your judgment, the atheist is the better person. True, he is a murderer and the Jew is not, however he murders only for PRACTICAL reasons, while the Jew hates for IDEALISTIC reasons, making that much more serious.

So in other words, if you redefine “good” and “evil” in a sort of very special, weird way, you can come out making atheists better than Jews.

Congratulations.

Question: How much alcohol and/or heroin do you have to consume for this drivel to make any sense? I would say, quite a bit.

Anonymous said...

"In your judgment, the atheist is the better person. True, he is a murderer and the Jew is not, however he murders only for PRACTICAL reasons, while the Jew hates for IDEALISTIC reasons, making that much more serious."

No, you're wrong again (and please allow me to explain what I think instead of you trying totell it to me. That's impolite and disrepectful). Given the convulsive logic of your posts, are you sure that you're not the one who's drinking and shooting up?

The murderer is clearly a horrible person. We live in a society where murder is against the law. Murder violates a person's rights and freedoms. The atheist position is that the murderer is wicked.

What about your hateful rabbi, whom I notes bears some resemblance to you? Well, this person is clearly a social poison. This person will lie and do whatever he can, short of murder I suppose, to ruin the lives of anyone he considers to be the wrong kind - whether an atheist or a different type of believer. Moreover, this person never has any reason to feel doubt or guilt about his hatred. All is justified - even the murder he inspires others to commit - by his belief that his god wants him to do whatever he decides to do. The atheist position is that this rabbi is no less wicked than the hypothetical murder because the rabbi's evil exists over a longer period of time and breeds other people with similarly toxic thinking.

Your hypothetical murderer does his evil and must be brought to justice. Your hypothetical rabbi is a social cancer and too cowardly to do anything but spread lies and blame his god.

Tell me, who do you think is the better peerson, your fake atheist or your all-too-real rabbi?

Signed,
Jacob Stein

jewish philosopher said...

Dear anonymous signing Jacob Stein:

The reason why I question your sobriety is as follows:

You claim that "The atheist position is that the murderer is wicked."

Yet we know that atheists can and do murder millions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

On the other hand, you claim that Orthodox Jews are "clearly a social poison" although they harm no one.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

So, for the third and I hope last time, I'm really curious: How much alcohol and/or heroin do you have to consume for this drivel to make any sense?

I would say, quite a bit.

Anonymous said...

"So, for the third and I hope last time, I'm really curious: How much alcohol and/or heroin do you have to consume for this drivel to make any sense?"

No alcohol or heroin for me, I'm afraid. Maybe I'm just dumb is all.

Tell me, who do you think is the better person, your fake atheist or your all-too-real rabbi? Why do you think this?

Signed,
Jacob Stein

Anonymous said...

Without your god, would you would start murdering people shooting up drugs?

Signed,
Jacob Stein

jewish philosopher said...

We don't have to compare anyone fake. We can compare actual people.

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein
Orthodox Jewish leader, 1895 – 1986
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Feinstein

Chairman Mao Zedong
atheist leader, 1893 – 1976
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao

"Better person" I assume means who did more good and less harm to humanity. I would go with Rabbi Feinstein. I think so would most historians.

jewish philosopher said...

"Without your god, would you would start murdering people shooting up drugs?"

That's probably hard to say, but it's easier to check what atheists actually do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_John_Lennon

Anonymous said...

I asked about you. Would you murdering people shooting up drugs if you didn't believe that there was a god?

Signed,
Jacob Stein

Anonymous said...

Numerous atheists have told me that mass murder is okay, as long as it is not done in the name of atheism. These are "normal" poeple i've had normal discussions with. Now, I find that a bit scary.

Nathan

jewish philosopher said...

"Would you murdering people shooting up drugs if you didn't believe that there was a god?"

I see no reason to think I'd be different than John Lennon.

Anonymous said...

Why exactly is it a problem if a person needs religion to be a good person? Would you atheists prefer that a person be a bad person, as long as he is a atheist? I guess morality is not all that important to atheists.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, the last post was me, Nathan.

Anonymous said...

How good are religious people? Let's check Jews.

Rabbis murder yeshiva students (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3775270,00.html)

Threats of physical violence and death, forced evictions, and shunning – this is what happens to Jews who report rabbis who rape children in Lakewood. (http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009909120323)

Rabbi And Wife Charged With Fraud (http://jewishnews.net.au/news/news.asp) - at least it's a family affair, right?

Thieving Baltimore -"Continuing Theft" From Yeshiva (http://www.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/news/jt/local_news/rabbi_jay_kenneth_wagner_indicted_for_continuing_theft/14550)

Haredim Riot! (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1114597.html)

Orthodox Sex Abuse (http://www.app.com/article/20090914/OPINION01/909150305/1029/OPINION/No+exemptions+for+sex+abuse)

Shlomo Benizri, Bribery and Corruption (http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/09/rabbi-ovadia-yosef-visits-shlomo-benizri-in-jail-234.html)

And on and on and on.

Signed,
Jacob Stein

Anonymous said...

Nathan,

Be very scared. The only thing that keeps the other "Jacon Stein" from killing people and indluging in dangerous drug-taking is that he thinks for the moment his god prohibits it.

If some rabbi tells him it's OK and god wants it, watch out. Then you'll see his name - hopefully, his real name - in news stories like the recent ones I gave.

Signed,
Jacob Stein

jewish philosopher said...

About the murder:

The murder victim and the two suspects all attended a local yeshiva known as "the Kollel," which takes in newly religious young people with criminal records, as part of an effort to rehabilitate violent offenders.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1251804531981

About the other stuff, check out this post:

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

jewish philosopher said...

"If some rabbi tells him it's OK and god wants it, watch out."

If some drug dealer tells you to kill someone for a fix, watch out.

jewish philosopher said...

Basically, the last forty comments have just rehashed the same old atheist nonsense:

Atheists are the world’s most peaceful and generous people. Their minds purified of all superstition, they occupy themselves with issues of world peace, social justice and scientific advancement.

No one who does anything bad is a true atheist. The mind of a true atheist is filled with science. Science is good. Therefore a true atheist cannot do anything bad.

Religious people are either Christians, who live in cabins in the Appalachian Mountains and spend their time shooting each other and Muslims who live in caves in Afghanistan and enjoy blowing up airliners.


I guess the more they repeat this, the less guilty atheists feel.

Anonymous said...

No one says "atheists are the world's most peaceful people." The core question is whether god exists. Atheists think the answer is no, and we have pretty good evidence that tells us god is very improbable, if not impossible.

Outside of some ancient books and commentary, where's your evidence?Where is it? Don't you even have one single fact of physical reality that would independently verify a claim for existence of god, the devil, heaven, giants, ghosts, golems and whatever else you believe in? Where's your frackin' evidence?

The other fact of this thread is that god is also totally irrelevant to morality. There's absolutely no law and no prohibition that requires the authority of an imaginary daddy.

Personally, my problem with religious people is when they insist that not believing automatically makes one a bad person. I know that religious people do lots of nice and wonderful things for the world, but they can also be terribly judgmental, intolerent, inflexible and willfuly obtuse on matters they don't care to understand.

I know a lot more about religion than you know about science and reason. Why? Because I want to learn things and live in reality. You, you want to insist that your parochial brand of judaism is the true sect, and you're unwilling to examine anything that even potentially disturbs that belief. It's very child-like of you, actually.

I feel no guilt. What do I have to feel guilty about? You are projecting your own feelings of guilt and inadequacy on others. Tsk-tsk.

So many jews become agnostic and atheist. So many intermarry. Why is this? Because many jews learn to be independent thinkers and to ask questions, such as where the bible comes from. When one looks, it becomes pretty clear that the bible is man made.

I'm OK with this. I wonder why you aren't. So what that the bible isn't divine? So what that god doesn't exist? So what that moses never led 3 million slaves through the sea? So what that there's no messiah? So what that there's no afterlife?

I don't get why it's such a big deal to you. I really don't.

It doesn't matter. It changes nothing. It makes you no different than before. It has no bearing on the past or the future.

Please stop lying. Stop lying about what atheism is. Stop lying about what judaism is. Stop lying to yourself. Just stop and breathe for a second. Go outside and look at the sky, that beautiful godless sky. Go look in the mirror at godless you. Go read the newspaper and learn of the godless world.

The god idea offers so little. Yes, it makes people feel like they have a personal connection with the universe. Yes, it helps people think through their moral choices and their standards. But god is a tool, and that's all. God is a mental idol.

Atheists totally reject idolatry. In this regard and many others we are the better jews.

Signing off,
Jacob Stein

jewish philosopher said...

It's obvious to any honest and sober person that the Torah is the truth.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

Without a belief in a transcendent moral authority, it would seem likely that mankind would not last more than a century. One half would kill the other half, the survivors would not bother to have children and that would be the end of that.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/10/god-save-king-why-we-need-both.html

The purpose of this blog is to promote truth and real happiness; fight lies and harmful addictions.

Since you've chosen to place yourself on such a pedestal and declare yourself to be so much superior to me intellectually and morally, I would like you to provide some detailed verifiable information about yourself. I'm sure I'll find it very inspiring. If you can't do that, we're done.

Anonymous said...

A disproportioante number of mass murderers were atheists. The worst mass murderers were atheists. And Everytime atheists run a country, they resort to mass murder. If you study history you'll find the numbers are against you. So I wouldn't say that G-d is irrelevant to morality. Some people smoke and don't get cancer, but you can't say that smoking is irrelevant to cancer.

And lots of people do nice things like donate money to tzedaka in the name of religion. According to the book "Who Really Cares" religious people give more money to charity, in total, per capita, and as a perentgae of income, they volunteer more, and they donate blood more often. So religion is not entirely irrelevant to morality.

Anonymous said...

Now ~1% of the population of the United States is in prison. According to some estimates, there are ~500,000 Orhtodox Jews in America. Now, if Orhtodox Jews commited crimes at the same rate as the general population, there should be ~5,000 Orthodox Jews in prison. I really don't think it is that much. A few years ago, Iread that a total of 70 prisoners in New York State prisons requested kosher food. That's a lot less than 5,000. Again, its the numbers.

Nathan

Anonymous said...

Now, that we've brought up the subject of being judgmental, Dawkins wants to put all religious people in jail, and he said that they are worse than child molesters. And Harris said that it shoudl eb legal to kill religious people as pre-emptive self-defense.

Anonymous said...

And the most close minded people happen to be evolutionists. Every new discovery, no matter how porblematic it is for evolution, somehow becomes a proof of evolution. Junk DNA was considered a proof of evolution, because God wouldn't create junk. Then it was discovered that it isn't really junk and that was calimed to be proof of evolution, becaseu natural selcetion wouldn't allow junk DNA. They claimed that DNA matches morphology as proof of evolution. Then when they found that it DNA does not match mrophology, it was claimed that the answer to the Cambrain explosion was found in horizontal gene transfer.

And some prominent evolutionists like Dawkins and PZ Myers have been ducking debates with people who know science. Not very intellectually honest.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

You are mis-informed on Hitler. Hitler was actually inspired by artificial selection, which has been in use for millennia and which is not controversial.

Hitler's idea was to use it to modify our own species rather than others. Darwin's insight was that other species could do the selecting as well as humans. Two very different things!

Another difference is that Hitler believed in races competing against each other, while Darwin saw evolution as individuals competing against each other.

I recommend Dawkins' new book, The Greatest Show on Earth. It should be available soon in the US, if it isn't already. Read what the man writes for yourself and don't rely on dishonest clergymen. See also Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution Is True.

When it comes to evolution (I know this started as a comment on Hitler), it really pays to learn from people who actually work on a daily basis with the evidence.

Can only scientists have opinions on science? No, of course not. For me, however, an admittedly biased religionist and non-scientist who rejects evolution cannot be very credible. His mind has always and already been made up.

Read from those closest to the source. Education is the enemy of ignorance.

Anonymous said...

Actually what Hitler said was artificial was religion. Darwin wrote that artificial selection was the same as natural selction, only faster. And Darwin, in chapters 5 and 6 of "The Descemt of Man" wrote that it was inevitable that the more highly evolved European races would exterminate the less higly evolved non-Europeans. So Darwin had natural selection acting at the level of race also. Look it up if you don;t believe me. And chapter 11 of volumn 1 of "Mein Kampf" so closely parallels the descent of man that it almost quotes verbatum.

Anonymous said...

And I've read Coyne's book. I've also read some of Dawkins' stuff. I spend a lot of time inthe intenet folowing the latest developments in science from the journals. The people at the Discovery institute, are for the most part, not clegymen. They are actually scientists. Most of the information they site comes for the peer reviewed science journals. And thers are the people Dawkins and Myers run from. What a pair of wusses, weinies, wimps, girly-men, sissies, etc./

Nathan

Anonymous said...

It's usually only a matter of time before Hitler comes into these discussions.

I'm familiar with the Darwin passage you cite. This is a familiar tactic by those who wish to avoid discussing evolution as the development of species.

Now, I think it's fair to say that Darwin shared the cultural and racial biases of his time period and class. I probably agree with you that Darwin came to see various races as being in competition with one another.

But surely you don't claim that Darwin himself imagined the Hitler-style genocide would be a good thing?

I suppose the question is whether it's right and fair to make Darwin to blame for Hitler. Another question is whether Hitler's use of a vulgar sense of Darwin's theory, applied outside the realm of natural species development, actually tells us whether evoltion is correct or not. I would think it does not tell us.

What do you think of Coyne's book?

jewish philosopher said...

I think it's fair to give Darwin credit for Fascism

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/04/trip-to-zoo.html

and atheism

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheism-in-nutshell.html

Anonymous said...

Haven't we had enough debates? Why should Dawkins or any other reputable scientist sully his name and grant some legitimacy to the Discovery Institute.

Have you read Meyers's new book? It's bad science and, well, it's a very deceitful book with subtle, underhanded tactics that rest on two claims: (1) All of William Dembski's detractors are wrong and Dembski really is as brilliant as Newton and our grandchildren will recognize this as the current generation of Darwinsts finally die off; and (2) 'Intelligent Design' should be an accepted theory of science even though all of the evidence points to it never, ever being useful to the applied sciences.

Do you ever notice that all the talk is always about evolution and never about ID? That's because with ID there's nothing to talk about. All they have are variations on the argument that the truth may be slightly different than the then-current scientific model had predicted, as if the model were taking an exam and was expected to score 100% or be invalid.

I'd be more receptive to ID - I think many people would - if ID actuallproduced something of value.

Anonymous said...

Do you think Darwin wanted fascism or thought it would be good for the world?

If you read Darwin's books, I don't think you can come to such a conclusion.

Again, it boils down to what kind of blame lies at the feet of Darwin, the man, for what another man does 70 years later.

And again, there's still no better scientific explanation than evolution for how earth developed its copious species of organic life.

I take it by the conspicuous silence that y'all agree?

jewish philosopher said...

"Do you think Darwin wanted"

Who knows or cares what he wanted? Did Mohamed want the World Trade Center to blow up? I don't know or care. I do however think he was a liar.

"there's still no better scientific explanation than evolution for how earth developed its copious species of organic life"

It's not science and not true.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/03/evolution-science-hijacked-by-atheism.html

Anonymous said...

"It's not science and not true."

Do you know this because you are a scientist and have studied the evidence first-hand?

(Please note that this is a yes or no question.)

jewish philosopher said...

OK, I get it. Appeal to authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority#Examples_of_appeals_to_authority

Do we have to go through all the logical fallacies on my list, or can we cut this a little short?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/post-about-comments.html

Anonymous said...

"Who knows or cares what he wanted?"

So you admit you don't know the contect of Darwin's writings and yet you think he was a liar?

If you (a) don't know Darwin's writing and you (b) don't know the context and you (c) don't know the basic intent behind his scientific treatises, then how on earth can you determine whether on not he is a liar?

Anonymous said...

Sheech. I only asked how you came to determine with such certainty that evolution is not science and not true.

Care to explain?

jewish philosopher said...

You might want to check out a really cool book that just came out.

The Darwin Myth: The Life and Lies of Charles Darwin

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596980974/ref=ox_ya_oh_product

jewish philosopher said...

About evolution:

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/03/evolution-science-hijacked-by-atheism.html

Anonymous said...

I have not read Wiker's book, but I'm familiar with his work. Usually, his schtick is that Darwin is neither a secular saint nor the human devil that people like us make him out to be. Darwin was a man of his age and not particularly outstanding but for the great accomplishment of the Origin of Species.

Based on reviews of the book at Amazon, the title seems to be a bit sensational.

What's the point you are trying to make?

jewish philosopher said...

He lied.

Anonymous said...

Yes, but how did you personally come to conclude that evolution was incorrect?

Did you read Origin of Species and find it uncompelling? Did works such as The Selfish Gene not convince you?

This is not a trick but a request for your description of the intellectual journey that brought you to your position on evolution.

How about we dispense with the posturing and just discuss the facts? Hmm?

jewish philosopher said...

I already wrote it.

Anonymous said...

"I already wrote it."

Oy vey. The one time he DOESN'T give a link!

jewish philosopher said...

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/03/evolution-science-hijacked-by-atheism.html

Anonymous said...

Well documented that Hitler was a catholic. http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Hitlersfaith.html

personally, i don't see any difference betwen religious and atheistic fanatics. Kill, kill, kill that's all you know how to do.

for any religious person to imagine that they are better than non-religious people is a huge joke.

Everyone know how much murder has been done in the name of God. Jews created christians and moslems and basically screwed up the world.

Organized religion is for sheep.

Janie.

jewish philosopher said...

Who are you? Have you read anything above until now?

Anonymous said...

I think we have the Jewish Philosopher mindset down pat.

Atheists - Bad, bad mean people who kill whenever they want, do lots of drinking and drug abuse, and have all sorts of orgies. And they never feel guilt or remorse. Grrrr.

Evolution - Totally false and destructive, no matter what the evidence says. Somehow it keeps getting taught and still employs researchers. But it's all wrong! All of it! How do I know? Because it doesn't make sense to me. Where are the rest of the fossils? You keep bringing them out and showing them to me, but I want every single solitary one back to day 1. Where's the crocoduck? Huh? Where is it? In short: since evolution is out of the way, it all had to be the work of GAWD! Yessss, score for me and my kind!

Communists: All communists are atheists - even the jews who lived in communist russia. Even the jews who joined the communist party in droves in the early part of the 20th century in america. All atheists are communists, of course, as are anyone who votes democratic. These people are all ENEMIES OF THE LAWD. I pray at night for their destruction because I am good and god wants me to.

ReligionPeople would eat each other and their babies if it weren't for religion. Religion makes the savage man peaceful and contemplative. Religion makes the world wonderful and full of the kinds of butterflies that only a clergyman and a young boy can truly know. Religion deserves to be funded by the state, even those awful, detestable religions that ARE NOT MINE, but they are OK because all those poor fools will spend eternity burning by a lake of fire. HA! Especially hateful are those people who are not as JEWISH as I am. Me and my firends are the most Jewish Jews on the face of the earth, and we are SO VERY HAPPY. That's why I blog. Really. I'm happy.

The atheist question Why do these atheist people keep insisting that there be some proof that Hashem is a real, actual deity? Why don't they just believe me? Why can't they see that it's in a REALLY OLD BOOK, so it must be true? Why can't they see that every contradiction, incosistency and ananchronism is PART OF THE DIVINE PLAN? Why can't they accept that one day all the dead who ever were are going to be alive again and walking on the planet? Well, I guess they'll all just have to die gruesome deaths and to suffer eternal torture to figure out that God is real and loves them.

Signed,
Jacob Stein

Anonymous said...

Darwin siad that the extermination of the inferior races was inevitable. It seems pointless to discuss whether it was good or evil.

And Janie, Hitler was raised a Catholic, but "Mein Kampf makes it abundantly clear that his core belief system was Darwinism. And when he said some nice things about Catholicism it was when he was seeking office and doing what politicians do best, which is lying to get votes. Now, recently revealed OSS documents show that the Nazis were planning on eliminating the Church in Germany. Doesn't sound like a good Catholic to me.

Anonymous said...

I wasn't all that impressed with Coyne's book. It had nothing new. And wasn't "The Selfish Gene" the one based on Junk DNA. Turns out that the junk isn't really junk at all.

And Darwin got so many things wrong. He was wrong about gemules. He was wrong about blended inheritance. He was wrong about the fossil record.

Anonymous said...

This is typical of the thinking of evolutionists.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090108082914.htm

They uncovered a problem with evolution,then say that it is a solution.

jewish philosopher said...

“Atheists - Bad, bad mean people who kill whenever they want, do lots of drinking and drug abuse, and have all sorts of orgies. And they never feel guilt or remorse.”

Correct.


“Evolution - Totally false and destructive, no matter what the evidence says”

There’s no evidence of evolution; all evidence points to intelligent design and catastrophism.


“Somehow it keeps getting taught”

Now we’re getting into an appeal to the people, a logical fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


“All communists are atheists - even the jews who lived in communist russia. Even the jews who joined the communist party in droves in the early part of the 20th century in america.”

Correct.


“All atheists are communists”

No, actually some were Nazis.
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/famous-atheist.html


“People would eat each other and their babies if it weren't for religion.”

Well, you can just ask Jeff Dahmer about that.
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/atheists-in-their-own-words.html


“Why can't they see that it's in a REALLY OLD BOOK, so it must be true?”

Appeal to Ridicule.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.htm


Now I’m still wondering when you’re going to enlighten everyone about who you are exactly, where you received your amazing wisdom, how you maintain your unique sober, kind, loving lifestyle. We really need this inspiration.

The truth however is perhaps not so impressive.

The atheist looks out through his blood shot eyes, his dilated pupils, his headache and nausea, his loneliness and depression and he sees Orthodox Jews living healthy, happy, successful, productive lives, in loving communities and stable families. He gets angry and jealous. He sees everything he can’t have because he has no self discipline, he can’t break his addictions. So he tries to console himself with some old Marxist-Leninist anti-religious nonsense which belongs in the dustbin of history. It’s pathetic.

Anonymous said...

Nathan,

I get it. You apparently think that evolution is some massive "Da Vinci Code"-like conspiracy and all the scientists are in on it.

You know what would be nice for a change? Could you - you, Nathan - show me how your theory of the development of organic life explains some specifics about our world?

And can you show me how it provides greater knowledge and explanatory than rival theories?

According to your theory, why is there the coherence among many different dating methods pointing to an old earth and life on earth for a long time - for example: radioactivity, tree rings, ice cores, corals, supernovas - from astronomy, biology, physics, geology, chemistry and archeology? These methods are based on quite distinct fields of inquiry and are quite diverse, yet manage to arrive at quite similar dates.

And how does your theory explain the distribution, seemingly chronological, of plant and animal fossils. For example, the limited distribution of fossils of flowering plants (which are restricted to the higher levels of the fossil record).

Now, in the contemporary world, different animals and plants live in different places. Why is there the present distribution of animals and plants in the world? For example, how is it that marsupials are restricted to Australia and nearby islands and the Americas, monotremes to Australia and nearby islands, and few placental mammals are native to Australia? Or why are tomatoes and potatoes native to the Americas only?

Finally, there is a large body of information about the different species of animals and plants, systematically organized, which is conventionally represented as reflecting genetic relationships between different species. So, for example, lions are said to be more closely related to tigers than they are to elephants. If different kinds are not genetically related, what is the explanation for the greater and less similarities between different kinds of living things? That is to say, why would special creation produce this complex pattern rather than just resulting in all kinds being equally related to all others?

Nathan, now that we know that evolution is false, please educate me on the theory you think best explains all of this.

I'd appreciate a nice direct approach to all of these. If you have side issues, I'll be happy to discuss after you answer my questions.

Thanks,

Signed,
Jacob Stein

Anonymous said...

"The atheist looks out through his blood shot eyes, his dilated pupils, his headache and nausea, his loneliness and depression and he sees Orthodox Jews living healthy, happy, successful, productive lives, in loving communities and stable families."

I happened to see your little video and your presentation of your life story. I'm sorry but what was presented of your life was not in my mind healthy, happy, successful or productive. I'm sure you will say I am wrong, and I'll respect your right to say it, although I have doubts that you actually believe it.

But since I saw the material that you (courageously) shared, let's not pretend. Your choice of judaism had nothing to do with truth or theology. You chose judaism because you liked it. It fit with your temperament and your desire for belief. You made a personal emotional decision. And then, sadly, you essentially flipped the bird to the people who had raised you.

I am sorry to say that this whole blog of yours is a rather disgusting charade, actually. Clearly you fetishize and fantasize about the atheist - he is your "Other." The atheist is who you wish you could be. He is the sign of your inability to be completely jewish.

If not, then why have a blog dedicated to "fighting" atheism? Why not just ignore atheists altogether and concentrate on being the best jew you can? You can't do this, can you, because a part of you agrees with the atheist and envies the atheist. I think a part of you knows the fatal flaws theism better than any atheist.

I don't expect that you'll post this comment. You don't have to if it hits too close to the truth for you, although you are admirable in your willigness to divulge as much about yourself as you do. I would never do that, if only because of the risk of ID theft.

But I genuinely feel bad you. I do not mean to patronize you or insult you with pity. I see nothing in your blog that indicates any sort of real happiness on your part. Tell me, are you happy? Do you laugh at all? Do you enjoy your life? From your blog I would say no.

So, I am leaving and I won't be back again. I do wish you well. I hope that one day you learn that atheists and atheism are not the enemy. I hope you learn that you are not the enemy either. And finally, I hope you learn that judaism isn't all. It's got things that can be wonderful and plenty of things worth teaching. I'll leave my comments on judaism at that.

Take care,

Jacob Stein

Anon1 said...

The circular arguments are really flying here.

It is all very simple.

The creationist idea's source is ignorant "authorities" from thousands of years ago, who knew little about their own history and environment, and were clueless about the scientific method. So-called biologists who claim to confirm it did not invent it themselves.

The evolutionary theory was developed and confirmed by scientists who know and understand infinitely more about the physical world, and use scientific reasoning.

This simple fact says more than a thousand circular comments and posts.

Yes, it is an argument by authority, but a hell of a good one. Argument by authority is sometimes true, if the authority is compelling. You fundies like JP use argument by authority all of the time when adjudicating Halacha, so don't pretend that you don't believe in authority.

The astounding fact that there are still supposedly intelligent people like Nathan or JP who choose the ancient authorities over modern ones says volumes about man's ability to deceive himself, as well as confirming theories about cognitive dissonance.

So, do you believe the Talmud, which says that worms spontaneously form in fruit, or biologists who study life using modern methods?

Because if you reject biologist's methods, then you should discard the germ theory of disease, and start avoiding those evil spirits floating around.

jewish philosopher said...

First anonymous, I have posts about my motives, happiness and anonymous bloggers.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-i-dont-respect-anonymous-bloggers.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/04/real-happiness.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/01/motives.html

Anon1,Jews today will not accept evolution just because the experts say so just like we didn't accept Jesus just because the experts said so. See "The Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther.

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

We have always been stubborn trouble makers.

Anon1 said...

Rejecting the authorities advocating Jesus (who also relied on ancient authorities) is different than rejecting scientific experts who use scientific reasoning and measurement which has brought us closer to objectivity and truth than anything else that has ever existed.

Jews reject Jesus for the same reasons that Christians or Muslims reject the Torah-- having nothing to do with objective or factual analysis, but rather due to group psychology and having been raised a certain way (with a few exceptions in either direction).

Unlike you, scientists are not wedded to a certain position; they are just committed to scientific reasoning as a source of knowledge. If this method requires a change in a theory, than so be it.

Anonymous said...

First of all I'm currently reading "The Trouble with Physics" by Lee Smolin. He writes that all the positions in physics are held by partisans of string theory. This means that anyone who questions sting theory is will find himself out of a job. So even in science people are not allowed to questions the orthodoxy. Same thing is happening with evolution.
Recently an interview with Michael Behe was censored becaue he questions the orthodoxy.

As far as distribution patterns of life are concerned, I think you're talking about biogeography. Scientists don't talk about that mush anymore becasue there are so many exception that it is hard to say that there is a pattern. For example, the alligators are found only in tropical and subtropical America, and in China. Closely related fressh water crabs are found in South America and Africa. The closest relative of the anteaters and the sloths is the african aardvark. And recentfossil monotremes and marsupials have been found all over the world.

And now scientists have dsicovered the whole tree of life thing is wrong because genetics does not match morphology. Sometimes species that are closer to each other than to another species in one gene, are more distantly related in another gene. So genetics doesn't even match genetics. Scientists are talking about horizontal gene transfer now. So I'm not sure how strong the pattern is.

And even if there is a pattern, that requires explaining I could take a oage from the scientists book and say "we hope to have an answer for you someday." And the question "Why would G-d do it this way?" is a theological question, not a scientific one, so why is it even bought into a scientific discussion?

Anonymous said...

Whem the Talmud was written, the concensus of opinion among scientists was that spontanious generation really did happen. If the Rabbi's of the Talmud rejected it you would say they were wrong for doing so. So we can't win.

Nathan

Anonymous said...

According to this:

http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2009/09/reducible-complexity-in-pnas/

Michael Behe wrote a response to an article on his specialty. The journal refused to publish it.

jewish philosopher said...

Anon1, let’s go back about 460 years ago to the time when Martin Luther published his little masterpiece. Let’s say a priest would have approached you and explained to you that ALL theologians agree that the Old Testament supports the view that Jesus is the messiah. The only dissenters are a few rabbis who are diabolical liars inspired by the Devil. The proof is that Christians are the most powerful and wealthy people on earth, while Jews are a scattered handful of beggars. Surely this demonstrates that God has rejected the Jews since they have rejected His messiah, while God is rewarding those who accept Jesus.

Pretty convincing, I think. Many Jews did apostatize too. Personally, I suspect that the high IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is thanks to stupid Jews apostatizing while smart gentiles converted to Judaism.

Anyway, I intend to make major life decisions based on evidence and logic, not based on what “everybody” or the “experts” or the “most successful” people are claiming.

Check this out for example:

“Practically all advanced opinion in Europe believes that the world’s ills can only be cured by socialism.”

Bertrand Russell famous socialist and atheist; article in New Republic 3/22/1922

Now regarding the unquestionable honesty of scientists, upon which you expect me to bet my life, check out this post:

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/09/portrait-of-scientist.html

Abe said...

>>>Anyway, I intend to make major life decisions based on evidence and logic, not based on what “everybody” or the “experts” or the “most successful” people are claiming.

Succesful people notwithstanding, that is the sole reason I reject torah dogma. Why strain to respect and abide by torah and rabbinic ordinances, when much of its non-humnaistic rituals and statutes are devoid of reason and logic?
And since those rituals and statutes are irrational it follows that the god of orthodxy is highly unlikely to be the one that ought to be worshipped. And it certainly makes belief in any god highly suspect.

jewish philosopher said...

Abe, have you ever had a job?

What do you think would happen if each time your manager asked you to do something, you would think it over and then start complaining that much of its non-humnaistic rituals and statutes are devoid of reason and logic. And since those rituals and statutes are irrational it follows that the manager of this company is highly unlikely to be the one that ought to be listened to. And it certainly makes belief in any business manager highly suspect.

Abe, if you're at work I want you to email this to your managers right now and see how they respond to this.

The point is: Even if you don't understand or agree with things, you must do as you are told. If you refuse, there are consequences.

Abe said...

In my comment above, I should not have said sole reason - one reason among many is more apt.
**************

Your logic and analogy is again highly flawed.
If my manager asked me to do something unreasonable and irrational, I would quit and find another job. Furthermore, unable to attract and retain critical thinking employees, his business would suffer with mediocre performance or eventualy might even close down. Many former orthodox believers like myself have become skeptics and discarded orthodoxy, for which we can thank the disemination of truthful information on the internet.
If I needed the crutch of religion and were somewhat of a critical thinking believer, I might abandon the god of orthodoxy in favor of a more liberal, reasonable god and religion... say, unitarianism or buddhism. Cerrtainly not one that oppresses reason with ridiculous requiremnts like wearing shaytels or drinking microscopic-bug free water.
In other words, if you must believe, there is no good reason to embrace the god of the torah, when there are so many quality substitutes available.

jewish philosopher said...

"I would quit and find another job"

I assume you don't have a job and will never be able to hold one. When someone is paying you, you do as you are told and questions about why are not welcome. Same thing with God.

Incidentally, it is impossible to understand the motives of a more intelligent being. Worms don't understand people and therefore people don't understand God.

Anonymous said...

Abe:

How do you know that wearing a Sheitel is irrational? Maybe it helps contribute to the stability of Orthodox Jewish Marriages.

Abe said...

>>>I assume you don't have a job and will never be able to hold one. When someone is paying you, you do as you are told and questions about why are not welcome. Same thing with God.

Can't you come up with a logical and reasoned response instead of resorting to ad-hominem attacks?
Instead of responding to the question you accuse me of being unemployed.
Is that the best you can do? Respond with puerile and immature retorts?
You're certainly not convincing anyone with that approach.

Abe said...

>>>How do you know that wearing a Sheitel is irrational? Maybe it helps contribute to the stability of Orthodox Jewish Marriages.

Just because it contributes to the stability of an orthodox marriage, does not mean that it is not irrational.
I'm sure that you would agree that the rat worshippers in India engage in an irrational enterprise, although I am sure it greatly contributes to the mariage stability of the rat-god believers.

jewish philosopher said...

Frankly, you sound like a lazy bum, and I'm simply explaining to you that this is not a very smart way to live.

Here's a little inspiration from youtube


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYRccSZgXV4

Abe said...

I rest my case.

jewish philosopher said...

Resting isn't enough Abe if you want to amount to something.

I wonder why people who have no trouble criticizing God have no tolerance for anyone criticizing them.

Anon1 said...

Nathan-" If the Rabbi's of the Talmud rejected it you would say they were wrong for doing so. So we can't win."

What I would say is irrelevant. It just shows that the authority based claims, which are based on the infallibility of the talmudic "scholars", are without basis and contradicted by common knowledge. If they are fallible regarding their scientific knowledge then they are fallible regarding their theories of history and divine will.

JP- "Anyway, I intend to make major life decisions based on evidence and logic"

You yourself just said to Abe that you can't understand the logic of Torah and mitzvot, and we should just "do what we're told". How is that making life decisions based on evidence and logic?

We've already seen your "logic" in your previous post about souls. JP's perception of biology, vs. that of evolutionary biologists. Gee, that's a tough one.

jewish philosopher said...

Anon1, speaking of logic, your the guy who believes worms can turn into people just because a bunch of self proclaimed experts say so.

Abe is discussing the reasons why God has given us the commandments. I am talking about whether or not we have a reason to do them. You're getting mixed up.

Anonymous said...

Abe, maybe you could give yoru definition of irrational. I think that something that contributes to happy marriages is rational.

Anon1, the Rabbi's never claimed to be infallible when it comes to scientific stuff. In fact, they never claim to be infallible when it comes to Torah knowledge. They only claimed that we have to follow them because they know better.

Abe said...

Anonymous 6:02.
Oops.
Sorry. I missed Mr. Stein's post of my response.

>>>Abe, maybe you could give yoru definition of irrational. I think that something that contributes to happy marriages is rational.

Here's one definition of irrational: not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical.

Within the closed incontestable order of orthodox halacha, I suppose wearing a shaytel might be considered rational, even life affirming. But not by objective standards. Were it not for halacha, would there be any good reason for a married woman to cover her hair in public?

Thus, if your governor ordered you to abstain from eating potatos on wednesdays for a myriad of preposterous reasons, would you acquiesce? Now, your governor might believe that his demand was quite reasonable. You, correctly, would refuse to submit because his demand is irrational. Wearing a shaytel is in of itself no less pereposterous. From an objective standpoint much of halacha is irrational.

Abe said...

>>>I wonder why people who have no trouble criticizing God have no tolerance for anyone criticizing them.

Its obvious you're unable to distinguish between criticism and polemical tirade.
Is that what they teach you at your daf yomi?

Alex said...

JP, I think it's time you create a new post that addresses the following idea.

It's clear that you believe that several of your correspondents are fools. That's fine. And you debate them. That may or may not be fine.

Proverbs Chapter 26:

verse 4. Do not answer a fool according to his folly lest even you become like him.
(Rashi: Do not answer a fool: with words of quarrel and contention lest you become like him.)

verse 5. Answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his sight.
(Rashi: Answer a fool: who comes to win you over to idolatry; let him know his folly.
Lest he be wise in his sight: The meaning of these two verses is explained in [the verses] themselves: :
Do not answer: in a matter in which you will become like him if you answer him. :
Answer a fool: in a matter in which he will be wise in his sight if you do not answer him.)

Can you explain when you should be following verse 4 and when you should be following verse 5?

Anon1 said...

"They only claimed that we have to follow them because they know better."

And therein lies the fallacy. We should follow what rabbis said 2000 years ago because they "know better". Know what better? The nature of the world? God? History?

"your the guy who believes worms can turn into people just because a bunch of self proclaimed experts say so."

That's a better explanation (evolution) than an invisible unprovable imaginary friend who was always there and went "poof"!

Nathan BTW, if you want to post your name why don't you just select "name/url" from the choose identity window?

Anonymous said...

Do you think one can take the work of folks like Richard Friedman and Israel Finkelstein seriously without being 'atheist' or 'anti-jewish'?

While I personally don't take everything such writers say as fact, their points deserve consideration. I certainly have not seen any refutation of the documentary hypothesis that I thought was detailed enough and evidence-base enough to be convincing. So th jury's out in my mind as to whether the DH, for instance, is probably true or not.

The problem is that when one considers the likelihood of the DH being true, one also has to consider whether Torah is true a- both the reasons for and the reasons against. I feel stringly that one must be willing to apply reason, logic and a comprehensive gathering of all the relevant facts to everything. I won't give my belief a special exemption from the method I use to make other important conclusions and decisions.

I don't see the modern 'new' atheist as a danger. In fact, I think they should be applauded for forcing religious people to clarify their thinking and their articulations of belief. Religious people should ask themselves about the role and status of religion in a diverse and democratic society.

I hope this isn't barging in on your thread/discussion. Shana tova to all.

Jon M., Massachusetts

jewish philosopher said...

“From an objective standpoint much of halacha is irrational.”

Abe, I think the key point you are missing is that Jews are slaves.

For unto Me the children of Israel are servants; they are My servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 25:55
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0325.htm#55

A master doesn’t owe his slave any explanations; the slave must obey or be punished.

You may say that you don't want to be a slave, however part of success in life is accepting things which cannot be changed.

By the way, unquestioning obedience is not a uniquely Jewish idea.

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/ChargeoftheLightBrigade.html

“Can you explain when you should be following verse 4 and when you should be following verse 5?”

What happens is that I write a post and then people criticize it. If I don’t respond, then it will be assumed that I have no response.

“That's a better explanation (evolution) than an invisible unprovable imaginary friend who was always there and went "poof"!”

That depends what you’re smoking. And let me point out that no one really believes in evolution. It’s clearly just a myth. Proof: Darwinists are not thrilled about global warming, as they logically should be. According to evolution no global catastrophes is a bad thing; it would mean no evolution.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/03/climate-change-and-evolution.html

“Do you think one can take the work of folks like Richard Friedman and Israel Finkelstein seriously without being 'atheist' or 'anti-jewish'?”

Not really.

“I certainly have not seen any refutation of the documentary hypothesis that I thought was detailed enough and evidence-base enough to be convincing.”

I have a post on it.
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/documentary-hypothesis-critique.html

“I don't see the modern 'new' atheist as a danger.”

I see it as being primarily a symptom of addiction disorders.
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html

Anonymous said...

Abe:

It seems to me that your definition of reasonable is just what appear to your intuitive sense of reasonablness. If that is the case then it is only in your opinion that the Torah is unreasonable.

Anon1:

The Rabbi's claim to know the Torah better, that is why we listen to them.

Nathan

Ahavah Gayle said...

I always find it terribly amusing that atheists point to "the hittites," et al., to try and "prove" that God ordered a genocide or some such. What they fail to mention is, of course, the words of Rachav who clearly said that they KNEW the Israelites were returning and KNEW that God had given them the land. Many thousands of smart people no doubt packed up and left - after all, they didn't need passports or visas in those days. The ones who stayed did so KNOWING they were in violation of an order from a Deity - how smart is that? They decided to fight a god they did actually BELIEVE in, hoping they could win but KNOWING the Deity had already decreed otherwise. That's suicide, not murder. The thousands of smart people had already left when Joshua arrived - and lived happily ever after.

Abe said...

>>>What they fail to mention is, of course, the words of Rachav who clearly said that they KNEW the Israelites were returning and KNEW that God had given them the land.

And your evidence that Rachav's precognition was any better than mine, is what ?
Asserting that HE KNEW about what THEY KNEW is as specious as Miss Cleo's claim of psychic divination

jewish philosopher said...

If I may butt in, I think this type of argument has to be about the most stupid and desperate thing that atheists have ever come out with and that’s saying a lot.

“OK, true, we atheists have murdered tens of millions in Communist countries, the Nazi Holocaust, etc. However you Jews, you think you are morally superior! Ha! Just take a look at Numbers 31 which records the murder of the Midianites! You guy are murderers too just like us!”

Atheists are murdering with wild abandon right now (North Korea, for example) while Jews killed a few thousand people over three thousand years ago and that’s supposed to show equal levels of moral degeneracy. Why not condemn the Norwegians for the Viking raids a thousand years ago? There you go; Norway is just as bad as North Korea. Call the UN.

Anonymous said...

The atheists say that the Bible is noit an accurate record of history. so according to them the massacres never happened. So the jews are completely innocent of any sort of mass murder.

Anonymous said...

"The atheists say that the Bible is noit an accurate record of history. so according to them the massacres never happened. So the jews are completely innocent of any sort of mass murder."

Hardly the point. The point is whether one will excuse away murder, rape and human enslavement simply because it's 'god-sanctioned.' Many people, even OJ's, admit that the god of the Tanach is a psycopath.

Anonymous said...

"Atheists are murdering with wild abandon right now."

Some direct evidence, please.

jewish philosopher said...

"the god of the Tanach is a psycopath"

I think "tough love" is more accurate.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/08/kindness-of-suffering.html

"Some direct evidence"

Sure.

According to the U.S. State Department, the [North Korean] National Security Agency runs a gulag of concentration camps for political prisoners, with up to 200,000 inmates. Yodok is a vast constellation of huts and barracks stretching across valleys. Former inmates say those who tried to escape were hunted down and executed in front of other prisoners.

Kim Gwang Soo, 44, said his work unit usually contained 240 inmates, including people like Kim Eun Chul. He said that in the three years he was there, about 200 people died, mostly of malnutrition, and were replaced with new arrivals.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/world/asia/31iht-refugees.2.5942539.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

But that's all fine because look at Numbers 31 - the Jews killed the Midianites! So everybody does it.

Anonymous said...

"According to the U.S. State Department, the [North Korean] National Security Agency runs a gulag of concentration camps for political prisoners, with up to 200,000 inmates. Yodok is a vast constellation of huts and barracks stretching across valleys. Former inmates say those who tried to escape were hunted down and executed in front of other prisoners.

Kim Gwang Soo, 44, said his work unit usually contained 240 inmates, including people like Kim Eun Chul. He said that in the three years he was there, about 200 people died, mostly of malnutrition, and were replaced with new arrivals."

I see the word 'atheist' nowhere in here.

Seems more like a government adopting the tough love program of your god.

jewish philosopher said...

"I see the word 'atheist' nowhere in here."

The North Korean government mandates atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism#North_Korea

"Seems more like a government adopting the tough love program of your god."

Seems more like a little maniac imagining he's God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il

Anonymous said...

"Seems more like a little maniac imagining he's God."

If he imagines he is god then he is not an atheist because atheists deny that any gods exist.

True or false: According to Torah, god caused all men and women to die, as well as all life.

jewish philosopher said...

"If he imagines he is god then he is not an atheist because atheists deny that any gods exist."

That's a common misconception. Many atheists worship themselves. The core belief of atheism is that there is no Biblical God and evolution created us. Evolution is different from God in that it has no intelligence, therefore it demands nothing.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheism-in-nutshell.html

"True or false: According to Torah, god caused all men and women to die, as well as all life."

False. Adam's sin caused death. Genesis 2:17

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0102.htm#17

Anonymous said...

"Many atheists worship themselves."

Bull. Prove that.

"The core belief of atheism is that there is no Biblical God and evolution created us."

Sure. But the core is the rejection of all gods - all of them. Your petty, provincial psychopath god is just one of many that belong in the dustbin of history.

"Evolution is different from God in that it has no intelligence, therefore it demands nothing."

Your god also demands nothing, from my point of view, because your god is simply an idea dreamed up (perhaps sincerely) millenia ago.

"False. Adam's sin caused death. Genesis 2:17"

And yet everything on earth suffers forevermore because of it. Besides, didn't Eve screw things up first? Why isn't she responsible, or is she less culpable because you think women are lesser humans?

You are one sick fundie....

jewish philosopher said...

"Prove that."

Sure. Stalin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Cult_of_personality

"But the core is the rejection of all gods"

Define "god".

"And yet everything on earth suffers forevermore because of it."

Don't worry; we're coming back. If we deserve it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection#Orthodox_Judaism

"You are one sick fundie...."

I love debating with atheists. Me against an atheist is like Hulk Hogan against Woody Allen. Total smackdown. Total ownage. Totally awesome.

Anonymous said...

Stalin was an atheist? He worshipped himself?

You ought to try backing up statements instead of just asserting them. If - if - Stalin were a declared atheist, why would that make him representative of all atheists? Are you represented by Jerry Falwell? Jim Jones? Torquemada? Pedophile priests? Mohammed?

Seems to me that history shows there are many more religious scumbags than atheistic ones.

God, n, a deity (possibly one of many, considered to be a supreme being; thought to be the creator and ruler of the universe.

"Don't worry; we're coming back. If we deserve it."

Yeah, right. More fairy tales for the emotionally needy.

"Total smackdown. Total ownage. Totally awesome."

OK, JP. Shh, now. Yes, you 'won.' Yes, it was right when you you brought in all the data showing the imminence of the afterlife. Yes, that's when you won it. Goal for you, my man. Total ownage. How could anyone come back after your impressive display of assertion after assertion? How could anyone come up with a refutation in the face of a MAGIC land where all our dreams will come true and you'll get to bang all the gentile boys and girls you see on your computer screen. Yeah, you really zinged me, man.

Seriously, is this the best you have? You are pretty lame.

Come over to my blog sometime if you want to mix it up. But please: bring an argument!

jewish philosopher said...

You asked me to prove that many atheists worship themselves and I did. Now you're throwing out some irrelevant comments about Torquemada to change the subject. Total smack down by JP!

“considered to be a supreme being; thought to be the creator and ruler of the universe”

That’s the Biblical God. Again - total smack down by JP!

“More fairy tales for the emotionally needy.”

The only fairytale is some Darwinian baloney about worms turning into people. Fairytales for the terminally addicted.

“How could anyone come back after your impressive display of assertion after assertion?”

Because you’re stupid, apparently. Where’s your blog – stupidpothead.blogspot.com?

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