Wednesday, August 12, 2009

Orthodox Jews and Homosexuality


[straight pride]


Sex historian Amo Karlen wrote that according to the sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, "Homosexuality was phenomenally rare among Orthodox Jews." Judaism's Sexual Revolution by Dennis Prager.

This would seem to refute the concept that homosexuality is genetically determined, while also demonstrating the moral superiority of Orthodox Judaism to secular American society.


As an aside, I would like to point out that since the late 1960’s homosexuals have tried to portray sexual orientation as equivalent to race and that homosexuals are an oppressed minority similar to blacks. After 40 years of lobbying, homosexuals have basically been successful in convincing most Americans of this.

In reality, it would seem to be more correct to compare male homosexuality to alcoholism rather than to African ancestry.

Like alcoholism, male homosexuality, has a genetic component however there are also important childhood environment and cultural factors. Like alcoholism, male homosexuality is basically an unhealthy and unhappy way of life. It also endangers other people because homosexuals spread dangerous infections to heterosexuals and have a much higher than average tendency to molest children.

Rather than resembling the black civil rights movement, the gay equal rights movement is reminiscent of the way many American liberals supported the Soviet Union, naively believing that Communism was a force for social justice. (See for example John Reed’s book The Ten Days That Shook The World which is full of the highest praise for the Bolsheviks.)

Rather than being embraced, glorified and celebrated, it would seem clear that homosexuality, like alcoholism, should be prevented, controlled, managed and sometimes punished. The Orthodox Jewish lifestyle would seem to be highly preventative of homosexuality in males.


It's interesting that until the 1944 murder of a homosexual, the New York Times makes no reference whatsoever to homosexuals residing the New York area.

50 comments:

Kennelrations said...

"This would seem to refute the concept that homosexuality is genetically determined, "

But does it refute the concept that /the inclination towards/ homosexuality is genetically determined?

Gilligan said...

"while also demonstrating the moral superiority of Orthodox Judaism to secular American society"

The MOST you can argue is:
"while also demonstrating the moral superiority of Orthodox Judaism to secular American society, IN ONE AREA OF LIFE"

jewish philosopher said...

"to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified"

http://www.aglp.org/pages/cfactsheets.html#Anchor-Gay-14210

"After a six-year study, Dr. Jones reached the conclusion that some homosexuals can become heterosexuals."

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/holy-post/archive/2009/08/08/can-homosexual-desire-be-changed.aspx

It would appear that homosexuality is something similar to alcoholism - there is a genetic component, as well as numerous other factors.

It seems to me most probable that male homosexuality is caused by a combination of genetic predispostion, as well as childhood trauma, such as abandonment by the father, abuse by the father or sexual abuse by men.

http://www.narth.com/docs/fitz2.html

This may explain why in certain societies, gay men are much more common than in other societies.

It also may explain why homosexuals and bisexuals are about 50% more likely than their heterosexual counterparts to suffer from depression and abuse drugs. The risk of suicide is over 200% greater for homosexuals.

http://depression.about.com/b/2008/09/23/homosexuality-strongly-linked-to-depression-and-suicide.htm

bankman said...

"The risk of suicide is over 200% greater for homosexuals."

I would argue that may be true becasue of the widespread bigotry and hatred geared towards them. Which exists, JP, although you may not know that :)

I wonder if "Homosexuality was phenomenally rare among Orthodox Jews" becasue its rare, or becasue they stay in the closet out of fear (becasue some people, i'm not saying you, JP, but some people may not like them or think they should be put to death)

jewish philosopher said...

"I would argue that may be true becasue of the widespread bigotry and hatred geared towards them."

Then I guess Jews should be even more depressed.

In 2007 864 hate crime offenses based on anti-male homosexual bias were reported by law enforcement agencies.

http://gaylife.about.com/od/hatecrimes/a/statistics.htm

In 2007, there were 969 reported hate crimes committed against Jews, according to the FBI

http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/jews.html

"becasue they stay in the closet out"

It seems to be clear that in certain cultures homosexuality is common and in some, rare or absent. Like alcoholism, for example.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Religious_Upbringing_and_Culture_Affects_Rates_of_Homosexuality

bankman said...

"It seems to be clear...."

could be, but maybe not.

no alcoholism in the frum community...hehe (ever been to a kiddush after shul?)

jewish philosopher said...

I have a post about that.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html

jewish philosopher said...

hehe

bankman said...

"I have a post about that"

what dont you post about, sheesh.

JP, do you think there is anything wrong with a grown man marrying a 13 year old girl?

Anonymous said...

Kinsey reported on finding very little homsexuality in the Orthodox community. He found that it was more common among Catholics. They were just as much "in the closet" as Jews were in the 1950's. So it would seem that the arguement that the OJ homosexuals were just hiding just isn't true.

Recreational Musings said...

It is clear from all statistics that Orthodox Judaism has less homosexuality and crime than others Jews and non-Jews. The argument that that shows the "moral superiority of Orthodox Judaism to secular American society" is only true from the Orthodox Jewish (or other relgious) perspective though. Personally, I do not disagree with you. But, on the other side of the issue, much of American society would call Orthodox Jews immoral for not accepting homosexuality.

Gilligan said...

Not exactly the kind of study you were hoping to see...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/05/gay.to.straight/index.html

jewish philosopher said...

"JP, do you think there is anything wrong with a grown man marrying a 13 year old girl?"

If you are the grown man, definitely something wrong.

My understanding of male homosexuality is that it might best be compared to alcoholism. It is a very harmful mental illness which cannot be cured but which can be managed and controlled. The best strategy is prevention, and Orthodox Judaism for whatever reasons seems to be highly preventative. Of course, this is not surprising considering that the Torah is divine wisdom.

alex said...

You fell into Bankman's trap.
You're saying there's something definitely wrong with some of our avos doing just that.

jewish philosopher said...

I have a post about child brides.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/01/judaism-and-pedophilia.html

Just by the way, the avos lived before the Torah was given and married people forbidden by the Torah (for example, Jacob's marriage to his sister-in-law Rachel).

alex said...

You now make this distinction of pre- and post- Torah legislation, but didn't when you wrote "If you are the grown man, definitely something wrong."

jewish philosopher said...

Prior to the revelation of the Torah, only the seven Noahide laws were binding.

lmark75 said...

Anonymous Said:
"Kinsey reported on finding very little homsexuality in the Orthodox community. He found that it was more common among Catholics. They were just as much "in the closet" as Jews were in the 1950's. So it would seem that the arguement that the OJ homosexuals were just hiding just isn't true."

There are several problems with this assertion: First of all, Catholics are used to secretly confessing their "sins" to priests. Thus, closeted Catholic homosexuals, who are used to unburdening their souls to human beings, would likely be more comfortable opening up to Dr. Kinsey. Secondly, there are many people who self-identify as Catholics who are not very observant, and would thus be less closeted. A less observant Jew would likely self-identify as Reform or Conservative, and thus not be counted as OJ in Kinsey's statistical analysis.

Finally, an decreased prevalence of homosexuality among certain ethnic groups does not mean that the trait is not genetic. Hmmm... there are very few people with black or dark brown skin among the Swedes. I guess being black is a choice. See how ridiculous that sounds?

jewish philosopher said...

Male homosexuality is probably similar to other behavioral problems and mental illnesses, like for example alcoholism. There is a genetic component, while childhood trauma and culture also play a large role.

Menashe said...

"In 2007 864 hate crime offenses based on anti-male homosexual bias were reported by law enforcement agencies."

"In 2007, there were 969 reported hate crimes committed against Jews, according to the FBI."


This does not refute bankman's argument; the frequency of hate crimes is not the issue here. Gays are persecuted by their own families, communities, etc. and often can not live in peace without taking flack from all sides. In contrast, Orthodox Jews have large supportive communities and like-minded families. The occasional swastika painted on a shul does little to affect anyone's happiness.

jewish philosopher said...

In that, case nothing can refute his statement.

The point is however that male homosexuality is an unhappy, unhealthy lifestyle which also endangers others by either spreading disease or through molesting little boys.

Menashe said...

Is there any evidence to suggest that openly gay people are more likely to be child molestors than anyone else? In all the suspected child molestation cases I can recall, the alleged perpetrator was straight in his public life. If that is the case, advocating against the open practice of homosexuality would not reduce the incidence of child molestation.

Anonymous said...

It's funny and fun to watch all of JP's arguments blow up in their hatefulness and stupidity.

jewish philosopher said...

"In all the suspected child molestation cases I can recall, the alleged perpetrator was straight in his public life. If that is the case"

You can check this out:

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/07/why-we-must-have-gay-rights.html

"It's funny and fun to watch all of JP's arguments blow up in their hatefulness and stupidity."

It all depends on what you call stupid. If you think with your brain, my arguments are very well founded and convincing. If you think with your genitals, my arguments are stupid and annoying.

Menashe said...

JP,
I think you misunderstood my point. The link you gave me has the following statistic:

A study shows 1/3 of pedophile victims are males while only about 5% of the population is homosexual.

However, what I wanted to know is whether there is any evidence suggesting that openly gay people are more likely to be child molestors than anyone else. The above statistic only reveals that child molestations are disproportionately of homosexual nature. However, it is possible (and in my estimation, very likely) that the majority of those crimes are committed by closeted homosexuals, i.e., men who are straght in their public life.

That's a big point. Absent further evidence, all we can derive from your statistic is that repressed sexuality leads to child molestation, not homosexuality. I suspect that if, hypothetically, the tables were turned and gay were the societal norm while heteros were forced into the closet, the overwhelming majority of molestations would be committed against young girls.

If that is the case, advocating against the tolerance of the openly gay lifestyle and thereby forcing gays further into the closet will actually increase the incidence of child molestation, not reduce it.

Anonymous said...

Menashe:

Aren't the NAMBLA people openly homosexual? I mean, you can't get more open than by advocating for civil rights for pedaphiles.

bankman said...

"Prior to the revelation of the Torah, only the seven Noahide laws were binding."

chazal say that the avos kept ALL of the torah - not just the noahide laws.

In addition, marrying 13 year old girls is acceptable according to post matan torah halacha.

jewish philosopher said...

About the avos, here is the exact quote:

אמר רב קיים אברהם אבינו כל התורה כולה
Yoma 28b
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/l/l2503.htm

Why do you want to marry a thirteen year old? Doesn't anyone older want you??

bankman said...

Why is marrying a 13 year old not acceptable today?

Also, why do Ultra-orthodox jews give heterim for certain Issurim, heter iska, ribis, there are too many to count - but other Issurim, there is no loophole, or kvetch?

Lets see some consistency.

jewish philosopher said...

"Why is marrying a 13 year old not acceptable today?"

Who said it's not? Maybe it still done in Yemen or somewhere.

"why do Ultra-orthodox jews give heterim for certain Issurim, heter iska"

heter iska isn't assur. Learn Bava Metzia.

bankman said...

Let's try this again

Do you believe that there is something inherently wrong with a grown man marrying a 13 girl and consumating that marriage?

Is it true that Chazal find "loopholes" for things like working on shabbos? (if a goy runs the store) or paying an employee on shabbos for work they do? (cleaning lady in the house on shabbos) or charging interest? (can you work at a bank)

jewish philosopher said...

If she likes you, you can marry her.

Just by the way, in the Netherlands, sex is legal above age 12 with an adult.
http://www.ageofconsent.com/netherlands.htm

"Is it true that Chazal find "loopholes""

The rabbis do not permit something which the Torah forbids.

bankman said...

"The rabbis do not permit something which the Torah forbids."

The torah says (in fact its in the aseres hadibros, which I guess means its VERY important) that stealing is not allowed, yet many Rabbis permit the stealing from non-jews.

"If she likes you, you can marry her" - what if she doesnt like you, but you arrange with her father to pay the family some money to marry her? still permitted, according to you?

jewish philosopher said...

You can't steal from gentiles.
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/theft.html

After age 12, you can't marry a woman by paying her father.

I have a post about child brides.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/01/judaism-and-pedophilia.html

bankman said...

thats a kvetch

i have heard with my own ears that gezel akum, under certain circumstances, is permitted.

jewish philosopher said...

That's why you need a rebbe.

Maybe try Partners in Torah.

http://www.partnersintorah.org/

Sergey said...

GAY IS THE WAY! Keep your bigotry to yourself jewish philospher. You as a heterosexual are an outsider with prejudices to homosexuality. Therefore you don't know what you are talking about. Heterosexuality isn't the only way of life.

jewish philosopher said...

Maybe alcoholism is the way.

Prometheus said...

I found your "Straight Pride" logo humorous in a very ironic way. Ironic not because of any intentional irony (a gray rainbow, get it? ahahaha!) but because of the ironic new definition of "Straight Pride."

For people like Jacob Stein, straight pride does not mean "proud to be heterosexual." To them "straight" refers not to heterosexuality but to severely repressed latent homosexuality, and "pride" means sexual repression and self-loathing. Thus "straight pride" means being a deeply repressed, self-hating latent homosexual. That describes Mr. Jacob Stein to a T!

Jacob Stein is a very troubled, disturbed individual, and clearly, if his alleged biographical details are at all true, his life story tells the story of a frustrated closet case. It could not be more obvious.

That's right folks. If your son shows any signs of being a fag, beat him straight! Some good old ole time religion can help him cope with his sick urges and become a sane, well-adjusted member of society like Mr. Jacob Stein, the poster child for mental health!

[That last paragraph was irony/sarcasm.]

jewish philosopher said...

Prometheus, you are just so perceptive. How did you guess I'm gay?

By the way, did you know that everybody who supports The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN)

http://www.rainn.org/

is in fact a rapist? It's just so obvious. Why doesn't everybody see it?

Prometheus said...

Well, it is obvious that you are deep in denial (notwithstanding your sarcastic reply). I do not think you are a closet homo JUST BECAUSE of your extreme homophobia. (Itself a defense mechanism.) Your alleged life history reveals as much. And please don't use the "I have a wife and kids" excuse. Many closeted gays marry and even father children to hide.

Let's see. After approximately 25 years of marriage to two different women, you only had 3 children, but since 2 of them are twins, that really only counts as 2 for the purposes of discussion. By that I mean you ONLY impregnated your wife twice. Your sex life must suck! It just seems odd that a "straight" man hates sex so much. (And nor do I think you are asexual. You are much too sex-obsessed for that.)

Your first marriage ended after 10 years without producing ANY children. One can wonder why. Perhaps, a lack of sexual compatability was the reason, given that your 1st wife was married to an obviously gay man living a lie. (To be fair, there may be other reasons for divorce. Maybe she was tired of marriage to an ultra-Orthodox Jewish nutjob.) After a decade-long sexless marriage and roughly 3 years of bachelorhood, you remarried, but failed to impregnate your 2nd wife for nearly 7 years.

Even your coming of age story is typical of closet cases. You were obviously a very troubled child, and obviously not interested in girls. Any normal young goyish (or any non-Orthodox Jewish) man, upon seeing an ultra-Orthodox rabbi sporting a smelly Jew beard, run in the opposite direction. You fled into their arms. In a day when most young men wanted to go to the disco and find young women, you seemed more interested in esoteric old desert religions. Instead of looking forward to hit movies of the time like Rocky, or Star Wars, which any red-blooded young man would see, you shunned the "decadent West" and her decadent ways. [I strongly suspect that your conversion to Judaism was an accident of circumstances. Were circumstances slightly different, you may have become Islamic fundamentalist ala John Walker Lynd. Rather than going to a yeshiva in Israel you would have been found firing at American soldiers with an AK-47.]

You were clearly a very disturbed boy growing up. (Any goy who would convert to Orthodox Judaism, a religion that HATES the goyim, pretty much has to be.) That you were a latent homosexual growing up at the time you did would explain why. Of course, to be fair, there may be other reasons. Mental illness certainly appears to run in your family, if your biographical and genealogical information is at all accurate.

Hmm...let's see:
* a man with absolutely no real interest in women,
* who appears to be deeply psychologically troubled for some reason,
* and who is EXTREMELY homophobic, not merely disapproving, but one with a morbid fascination who seems to feel comfort in hated.

Yup! The evidence sure piles up. Just saying, it is extremely hypocritical for you to attack homosexual men for being what they are, when you are clearly gay yourself, you just suppress it, and it is equally hypocritical for you to attack heterosexual men for their lust for the opposite sex, when you feel no such desire, and therefore do not understand the temptation that REAL straight men face.

jewish philosopher said...

Again, you've hit the nail on the head. I'm just a little confused, however, what sort of Orthodox Jewish convert was Jeff Dahmer?

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/atheists-in-their-own-words.html

Anonymous said...

Prometheus:

Onw of my female students last year expressed an interest in becoming my mistress. I turned her down for a number of reason. Does that make me a homosexual? Or does that make me a person with morals and standards?

jewish philosopher said...

I wear cologne. Is that gay?

07demonchild said...

Wow, if you really think that this is really just a mental thing that people are stuck in, like alcohol, just because homosexuals do not have their own nation and race such as black people and those who are Jewish, then I really cannot say that you are a very credible "philosopher". And what right do you have to say that being gay is "basically an unhealthy and unhappy way of life"?! You are just another person in this world who does not want other people to be different than they are and will go as far as verbally bashing other groups of people in the face to make it seem like what they are doing is wrong.

jewish philosopher said...

I think if you click on the links, I've answered those questions.

Anonymous said...

From reading your article,
you sound completely ignorant on this topic, and you way want to do a little more research.
Studies show that homosexuals can have happy and healthy relationships. They turn unhealthy and unhappy because society alienates them so that they cannot accept themselves.

jewish philosopher said...

I suppose alcoholics could claim that as well.

JohnP said...

Though someone said Kinsey said it, I have yet to see any direct quote. And how would he know?

Religious pride can make one say some fairly blind things

"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country. We don't have that like in your country." - Ahmadinejad

jewish philosopher said...

I think anthropologists recognize that in some cultures homosexuality is extremely common while in others nonexistent. It's a bit like alcoholism. Homosexuality was almost unknown in the US until 1950.