Wednesday, June 10, 2009

The Holocaust - Clear Evidence of God's Hand in History


[Photograph in a letter sent home by a German solider. It was intercepted by the Polish Home Army. The back of the photo is inscribed “Ukraine 1942, Jewish Aktion, Ivanogrod”]

According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, a miracle means “an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs”. In that sense, I believe that the Holocaust was clearly a miracle, although an extremely painful one.

On January 20, 1942 15 leading German government officials, the majority of whom were holders of doctorates, gathered in Berlin to organize the systematic and complete extermination of European Jewry. This was done at the direction of German Chancellor Adolf Hitler. During the next three years, until May 7, 1945, approximately five million innocent, unarmed Jews would be murdered, in addition to the one million who had already been killed previously by the German authorities. This seems to have been a unique event. There may be no comparable example of coolly premeditated mass murder.

The strangeness of the Holocaust cannot be overstated.

First of all, Germans were on the average highly educated and civilized. They were very cultured people. They were not superstitious savages. Prior to 1933, there had been no anti-Semitic violence in Germany since 1819. German Jews had been granted legal equality in 1871. Twelve thousand German Jews gave their lives for the Fatherland from 1914 to 1918. Many German Jews had converted to Christianity, intermarried and had family ties with gentiles. Few were conspicuously observant.

Secondly, in 1942, Germany was in the midst of a tremendous battle for survival, fighting on all fronts against the USSR, England and America. It would lose this battle three years later. The idea of committing precious administrators, troops, trains, fuel, weapons, ammunition, etc to the pointless murder of civilians, civilians who could have worked productively, was not only criminal, it was inexplicable.

The Holocaust is so unbelievable that one can begin to understand the logic behind Holocaust Denial.

Yet we know it happened - but why?

I my humble opinion, there is only one plausible explanation.

The Jewish Enlightenment began in Berlin in 1783 with the publication of a translation of the Pentateuch into German by Moses Mendelssohn. From there it spread across Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, causing the most flagrant, voluntary abandonment of Jewish observance in history. Millions of Jews embraced secular Zionism, Communism and Socialism.

As the Torah predicts, devastation followed. Beginning in Berlin, spreading across Europe but primarily eastward, the war against the Jews spread, just as the Jews’ war against God had spread.

One rabbi, who was later murdered, commented “Because people no longer believe in hell, God brought hell to this world.”

Regarding the over one million children who were killed in Holocaust, the rabbis have taught “minors may die by their fathers sin, by Heavenly decree” Sifre, Devarim 24:147. Also, a child may be a reincarnation of a adult who sinned in a previous life.

While it is true that many Jews, especially those in Poland, were still observant, however even in Poland observance seems to have been weak. Poland had a pre-war Jewish population of 3.3 million. Of those, to the best of my knowledge, no more than 100,000 voted for the ultra-Orthodox Agudath Israel party in the pre-war Polish Parliament. The secularist Zionist and Bund were far more numerous. And in many cases God may punish the righteous because they did not make sufficient efforts to influence the evil.

On the other hand, in the ultra-Orthodox strongholds in the rural regions of Hungary and Romania I believe that a large percentage, especially young adults and rabbis, did escape the Nazis. Their deportation to Poland began in the spring of 1944 and many survived until the war ended. Many Lithuanian rabbinical students also survived. Many of them fled to Shanghai, China or were deported to Siberia by the Soviet government in 1941, where most survived the war. These groups, together with their descendents, make up the bulk of Orthodoxy today.

North African Jewry was far less affected by the Jewish Enlightenment and also far less affected by the Holocaust.

The Jewish communities in America and Israel, although also mostly irreligious, were not affected by the Holocaust, perhaps because God does not wish the Judaism to be entirely extinguished and therefore He has left these countries as safe havens. Additionally, they were new communities, which were not yet deserving of such a terrible fate on a communal level. Let us hope that we all soon repent and avert any future catastrophes, God willing. We must not forget for a moment the enormity of our responsibilities and the horrendous consequences of failure. Ever action is ultimately rewarded or punished, in this world or in the next world. The Holocaust was simply a case where it clearly happened in this world.

Important to note as well, the perpetrators did not escape without punishment. The number of Germans who perished during the war (counting only those who lived within the pre-war borders of Germany) seems to approximately equal the number of Jews killed by the Germans. What goes around comes around.

It is true that I am implying that generally the victims of the Holocaust were sinners who were deserving of their fate however I believe that this is in fact obviously true and we will honor their deaths by learning from this.

In my opinion, the Holocaust is one of the strongest proofs of the truth of Judaism.

84 comments:

DrJ said...

Something you and Shalmo agree on.

Shalmo said...

Ignore DrJ he's just a stuck up cow who can't over how horrendously I destroyed every argument he had in our political discussions, and is here now pouting.

But more importantly.

JP I don't believe your arguments can convince anyone of divinity in Judaism here as well.

If lack in observance brings wrath from God then why isn't there any wrath from God today. 60% of Jews are secular. Shouldn't there be another holocaust by God to teach Jews another lesson

The Holocaust if anything establishes the opposite scenario. Most Jews stopped being observant after the horror of the Holocaust because religion disgusted them. They loathed the religion that had brought such suffering upon. The Holocaust's after math only made Jewry even more irreligious, thus establishing the opposite of the paradigm you are advocating

Futhermore....

"This seems to have been a unique event. There may be no comparable example of coolly premeditated mass murder."

This is absurdly false.

The systematic genocide being instigated today against the Palestinians today by Israel surpasses any known historic oppression of Jewry.

During anti-woman mass murders committed by hindus in India over 50-million women were systematically killed. And today everyday countless baby girls are killed by hindus and sikhs in India, because they are born the wrong gender. Which if you tally adds up to numbers far surpassing the Holocaust.

There have been numerous barbarisms in history, many surpassing the Holocaust in numbers.

"As the Torah predicts, devastation followed. Beginning in Berlin, spreading across Europe but primarily eastward, the war against the Jews spread, just as the Jews’ war against God had spread."

The Torah predicts destruction in individual scenarios where Jewry were persecuted. Of course modern analysis has shown that each of those predictions were written after the supposed oppression by Judea's enemies happened. The book of Daniel is a prime example, what was once considered prophetic was in fact written in the 1st/2nd century

But here's an important question for you JP. Why after Malachi have Jews no longer received any more prophets? If you are still God's chosen people, then why has he stopped sending you prophets, after a continuous stream of prophets? Could it be that God has given up on the Jewish people? And why is God instigating a new holocaust against the Jewish people today; the holocaust of sky-rocketing rates of apostasy and intermarriage? Could it be divine punishment for the bloodletting Jews are doing in Israel?

Shalmo said...

CLICK HERE:

http://www.codoh.com/

jewish philosopher said...

"If lack in observance brings wrath from God then why isn't there any wrath from God today. 60% of Jews are secular. Shouldn't there be another holocaust by God to teach Jews another lesson"

I explained that.

"Why after Malachi have Jews no longer received any more prophets?"

Jews stopped listening so God stopped talking.

Joshua said...

Shalmo, as is often the case you start off by saying something imminently reasonable and then go off the rails. One can easily criticize the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. However, to claim that it "surpasses any known historic suppression of Jewry" is manifestly false (unless you are claiming that Israel has killed millions of Palestinians). One doesn't need to exaggerate one's case in order to make it.

By the way JP, isn't this a repeat. You made all these deplorable claims back in 2007:

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/06/holocaust-painful-miracle.html

You could at least make a minimal effort to either a) improve the post, possibly addressing the many criticisms in the comments thread there or b) indicate that this is a repost.

jewish philosopher said...

I've made a few small changes, but otherwise it's still the same amazing insights.

Shalmo said...

Joshua:

Jews have never been caged in a small region like Gaza, given ridiculous curfews that lead to unyielding rates of frustration, while constantly living under the threat of their family and kin being killed by F-16s, living in a tiny backater where carcasses of children litter the land; each reminding each family of what they are hoping to avoid. Its psychological Hell. The same kind of Hell that produces hindu suicide bombers amongst the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. The difference with Jewish massacres is that the enemies of Jewry at least granted them the peace of death the majority of time. Jews have never experienced 60+ years of such torture. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

Jewish Philosopher:

Jews were always rebellious yet God didn't stop sending them prophets then. So why the sudden stop after Malachi?

Many Jews are returning to Judaism. Why can't the people who are committed to Judaism get prophets?

2400 years is a loooong time to not have any divine guidance. If he hasn't given you any prophets for this many centuries what makes you think he is gonna change his mind any time soon?

Its actually a question that perplexes more theists. Why isn't God sending mankind any more prophets? Even christians ponder this a lot and wonder why God won't send a prophet to tell them which of the 900+ sects of christianity is true.

It would be so much easier for me to believe in Judaism if God would just send a prophet. In fact all the skeptics that you are fighting with would return to Judaism if only they have reason to believe it. When God can stop intermarriage and liberalism from deestroying Jewish numbers, by just sending a prophet, the question is why he doesn't do so. What is holding God back from doing the one thing that can save the chosen people?

jewish philosopher said...

I think this was pretty much the last straw on prophesy.

Jeremiah Chapter 37

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1137.htm

DrJ said...

My variation of Newton's third law: for every miracle there is an equal and opposite anti-miracle.

With breathtaking absurdity you pick and choose which events are "god's hand" or "miracles" and fit them into your ridiculous scheme of beliefs, and ignore the ones that don't fit in. Perhaps Shalmo is right, and picked the Muslims or Christians to carry on your God's work? Doesn't their "success" prove it? Or perhaps doesn't the creation of Israel prove the Zionists were right? Which was god's hand, JP?

I spit on your "god".

alex said...

"I my humble opinion, there is only one plausible explanation.

The Jewish Enlightenment began in Berlin in 1783 with the publication of a translation of the Pentateuch into German by Moses Mendelssohn. "

But maybe part of the reason of the defection was the behavior of some Orthodox Jews. Aren't Jews supposed to lay the blame on /ourselves/, in one way or the other? (Of course I don't mean ALL the blame should be placed on any group of people.)

jewish philosopher said...

"Which was god's hand, JP?"

Everything is. If the wicked succeed, that it is a challenge and temptation for the righteous.

DrJ, I think I notice a little buzzkill in there.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/buzzkill.html

You poor thing. Did I just spoil your fun?

"Aren't Jews supposed to lay the blame on /ourselves/"

I just did.

DrJ said...

"Everything is. If the wicked succeed, that it is a challenge and temptation for the righteous"

So if anything and everything that happens is god's hand, how can you pick out any one thing as exceptional and use it as proof?

It loses all meaning. So all you have really said is "everything happens because of god", so how is the holocaust in particular "clear evidence" of anything? Everything exceptional and non-exceptional is god's hand anyway, so there is really nothing exceptional.

JP, what drugs are you taking?

jewish philosopher said...

How does the success of Muslims or Buddhists or whatever prove anything? People have free will to choose to do whatever they wish, including believing in stupidities such as evolution, Zionism, Scientology, astrology, macrobiotics, etc, etc.

Anonymous said...

Everything is = Nothing is



-Larry Tanner-

jewish philosopher said...

I don't get that.

I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.

http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm

jewish philosopher said...

The point is like this.

Let’s say it would say in the Torah “Shanghai is going to blow up on January 15, 1951.” And let’s say that a nuclear bomb was dropped and Shanghai did blow up on January 15, 1951. I would say that is validates the Torah as containing true prophesy and being the word of God.

Asking all sorts of questions: Why Shanghai? Why not Tokyo? Why that day? Why not a different day? may be very interesting, but does not negate the open miracle.

Anonymous said...

This is sort of OT, but still interesting:

http://loveforlife.com.au/files/tob_shebbe_goyim_harog_first6_0.pdf

It seems that the perpetrator of the shooting at the Holocaust Museum was an evolutionist, as wel as a white supremacist.

Joshua said...

Shalmo,

I think you may need to look up where the word "ghetto" came from. To claim that Jews were not subject to centuries of repeated, non-stop persecution is simply inaccurate.

And your argument that somehow engaging in genocide is somehow not as bad because it gives the "peace of death" is frankly off the wall.

What you are doing appears to be a classic example of belief-overkill: where one adjusts all the facts to fit a perfect argument for one's own extreme viewpoint on one side of an argument (you see incidentally the same thing with partisans who claim more or less that Israel has never done anything wrong). This is a cognitive error that occurs with people all over the political spectrum, but one should be able to recognize it and avoid it.

Israel's behavior to the Palestinians has been far short of ideal. In many ways, it has been deplorable. That doesn't make it comparable to largescale genocide. And the real take home point is that that doesn't make it less of a problem. Just because I can't make some rhetorical flourish or appeal to irony doesn't make the situation any less problematic.

JP, that's not at all similar. Nothing you have claimed it is at all as unambiguous as the Shanghai hypothetical. Your statement as made is essentially untestable and thus useless. The fact that it also portrays a God which is not terribly worth worshiping is a separate but also relevant issue.

jewish philosopher said...

"Nothing you have claimed it is at all as unambiguous as the Shanghai hypothetical."

Of course, you can shrug the Holocaust off as coincidence, as you could shrug off the Shanghai example if that would be the case.

"it also portrays a God which is not terribly worth worshiping"

And that type of God would be worthy of worship? A God who like a permissive and overindulgent parent sends unlimited money and demands nothing?

Shalmo said...

Joshua I never claimed Jews were not subjected to centuries of persecution. What I said was they have clearly not faced what they are doing to Palestinians today, which is true.

My undergraduate program is on Jewish history so I know what I am talking about. If there really is anything in Jewish history that even remotely compares to what is being done in Gaza today in terms of psychological warfare, then please clue me in.

But don't ask all smug like a know it all unless you actually have examples with which to elaborate your points.

And I stand by what I said because in my book torture (especially one that is going on for 60+ years) is indeed worse than death. That doesn't make genocide ok, it simply substantiates my reasons for why Jewry really have no clue what they are doing to the people whose land they have stolen.

I can just as easily reflect your accusation of belief-overkill back at you. The very fact that you just said we cannot compare Israel's actions to large scale genocide, when in fact that is exactly what is going on, troubles me. Why should I not believe that being a Jew you have every reason to wish to water down what Israel is doing? The stick applies to you as well my friend.

But this is a totally off topic discussion.

Joshua said...

JP, you are really impressive. I really enjoy how you can describe with no apparent humor involved your reposts as having "still the same amazing insights."

So if I understand you, you are claiming that your vague interpretation of various prophecies and not even attempts at prophecies in a completely ad hoc and untestable matter is equivalent to someone predicting thousands of years in advance the destruction of a specific city on a specific day. Right.

You are also, if I understand you, claiming that a God that doesn't send millions of people to die slow, painful deaths, and leave thousands of widows and orphans is somehow equivalent to an "overindulgent parent sends unlimited money and demands nothing." Is that correct?

alex said...

>>"Aren't Jews supposed to lay the blame on /ourselves/"

> I just did.

No, you blamed it on /other/ Jews, not "ourselves" (as in "my own camp") You knew what I meant, JP!

jewish philosopher said...

Joshua, I can't decide what is going to convince you and what isn't. Some people aren't even convinced that the Holocaust happened.

Regarding divine punishment, I think that the most successful people are those who accept reality rather than those who deny it. The Torah explains what the consequences are for not listening to God. Why don't you study it instead of complaining about it?

Alex, no I don't think that every bad thing that happens is the fault of observant Jews. Quite the contrary; observing the Torah brings all blessings into the world.

Anonymous said...

"How does the success of Muslims or Buddhists or whatever prove anything? People have free will to choose..."

You completely contradict yourself. How is that different than the German's free will to be Nazis? Why does davka that prove "god's hand"?

You pick one event which you claim the torah predicts (by fitting in your own interpretation) but ignore all the other millions of events in history that the torah didn't predict. So by chance alone anybody could be right about something once in a while. Kind of reminds me of the torah codes scam.

I predict that there will be an earthquake on the US west coast some time in the next 100 years. If an earthquake happens does that prove that I have a "hand" in history?

JP, you're full of it.

DrJ said...

Let's summarize what JP has said so far:

1. All evil deeds are punished by God, except when they aren't.
2. Good deeds are rewarded, except when they aren't.
3. Sinners are punished for their evil deeds, except when good or innocent people like children are punished as well (since His aim isn't very good)
4. Since there is no prophecy we can't actually know if we're sinning or not and whether anything that happens is a reward or punishment, so we have to guess.
5. The afterlife is the main thing.

That's just a wonderful morality, isn't it? Imagine an earthly leader who ran a country like that.

JP, the corruption and depravity of your beliefs are laid bare for all to see.

The atheists have it all over you.

jewish philosopher said...

DrJ and anon, I am saying that the Torah predicted something and that's exactly what happened.

Let’s say it would say in the Torah “Shanghai is going to blow up on January 15, 1951.” And let’s say that a nuclear bomb was dropped and Shanghai did blow up on January 15, 1951. I would say that is validates the Torah as containing true prophesy and being the word of God.

Asking all sorts of questions: Why Shanghai? Why not Tokyo? Why that day? Why not a different day? may be very interesting, but does not negate the open miracle.

[Why do I have to keep repeating myself?]

"All evil deeds are punished by God, except when they aren't."

Wrong. They always are eventually.

"Good deeds are rewarded, except when they aren't."

Wrong. They always are eventually.

"Sinners are punished for their evil deeds, except when good or innocent people like children are punished as well (since His aim isn't very good)"

The children may be reincarnated adult sinners.

"Since there is no prophecy we can't actually know if we're sinning or not"

Of course you can know. Ask a rabbi.


"The afterlife is the main thing."

Exactly.

"That's just a wonderful morality, isn't it?"

Absolutely.

"Imagine an earthly leader who ran a country like that."

Imagine one who doesn't like the atheist leaders of North Korea, China, Cambodia, the USSR, etc.

"JP, the corruption and depravity of your beliefs are laid bare for all to see."

DrJ, the stupidity of your rantings are laid bare for all to see.

DrJ said...

"Let’s say it would say in the Torah “Shanghai is going to blow up on January 15, 1951.” And let’s say that a nuclear bomb was dropped and Shanghai did blow up on January 15, 1951. "

Precisely. But the torah makes no such accurate prediction. For thousands of years Jews have been persecuted, without any correlation whatsoever to whether they "follow the torah" or not. Pogroms, inquisitions, conquests, blood libels, massacres, crusades.

Besides, if it was following the torah scenario, why was Israel born? And why did 10s of millions of other non-Nazi people have to die? Did the torah forget to write that?

I really do respect the Torah and Jewish tradition, I just despise your idiotic interpretation of it which is based on childish black and white thinking. Evidently you haven't gotten past thinking like a 5 year old.

jewish philosopher said...

"But the torah makes no such accurate prediction."

And if it would, I'm sure that you would ignore it anyway, ("Big deal. One lucky coincidence.") just as you ignore all the other evidence of Torah.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/gods-wisdom.html

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/10/judaic-literature-providing-proof-of.html

DrJ, I understand you. An addict will deny everything and anything in order to continue using.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html

However, eventually, reality come crashing in. Let's hope that doesn't happen when you are stuffed into a gas chamber.

DrJ said...

" just as you ignore all the other evidence of Torah."

As I dismiss the evidence of the Quran and New Testament, and the FSG.

Just as you dismiss 150 years of scientific discovery.

" Let's hope that doesn't happen when you are stuffed into a gas chamber."

The Nazis cut plenty of beards and payes off.

jewish philosopher said...

"Just as you dismiss 150 years of scientific discovery."

You mean the fossils? Not really.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-i-understand-genesis.html

alex said...

"Alex, no I don't think that every bad thing that happens is the fault of observant Jews. Quite the contrary; observing the Torah brings all blessings into the world. "

Why did you put that crazy thought (first sentence) into my mouth? Please reread what I wrote.

jewish philosopher said...

You wrote:

Aren't Jews (as in "my own camp") supposed to lay the blame on ourselves, in one way or the other?

I answered, no I don't think that every bad thing that happens is the fault of observant Jews.

Joshua said...

JP, so you are now reduced to comparing my disagreement with you to Holocaust denial? That's charming even by your standards.

And you seem again to be confusing what Jacob Stein believes with what the Torah says, what God says, and a host of other things.

alex said...

I also said "the behavior of some Orthodox Jews." The word SOME implies that SOME of the blame could rest on Orthodox Jews. You haven't addressed this yet.

Anonymous said...

Please excuse my going off topic, but this is interesting.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=an-immodest-proposal&page=2

It seems that since Darwinists are losing,they are changing the rules in the middle of the game. Most people consider that cheating.

jewish philosopher said...

Josh, I'm not sure what you're problem is regarding this post, however as far as I can tell you seem to be making an argument from personal incredulity: "I can't believe this (that the Jewish Enlightenment caused the Holocaust) is possible, so it can't be true." This is a type of wishful thinking. It's not rational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Argument_from_personal_incredulity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking

Alex, no, if all Jews had remained Orthodox, I don't believe the Holocaust would have happened. An unprecedented abandonment of Torah caused an unprecedented catastrophe.

Shalmo said...

JP you keep insisting the Jewish books get prophecies right, when clearly both the Torah and the Prophetic books are filled with countless failed prophecies:

Isaiah spoke of a prophecy God made to Ahaz, the King of Judah that he would not be harmed by his enemies (Isaiah 7:1-7)

Yet according to II Chronicles, Syria and Pekah did conquer Judah!

II Chronicles 28:1, 5-6: Ahaz was 20 years old when he began his reign...the Lord God gave him into the hand of the king of Syria, who defeated him and took captive a great number of his people...He was also given into the hand of the king of Israel who defeated him with great slaughter. For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew a hundred and twenty thousand in Judah in one day...

Ezekiel made a prophecy that, at the time he wrote, seems most likely to be fulfilled. The prophet was writing, in 587BC, at the time when Nebuchadnezzar was laying siege on Tyre. With such a powerful army like Nebuchadnezzar’s, it was not surprising that Ezekiel prophesied the fall of Tyre to the Babylonian king.

Ezekiel 26:7-14 clearly prophesied the sack and complete destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar. However, the vivid description of the sack and fall of Tyre never happened. After a siege of thirteen years, until 573BC, Nebuchadnezzar lifted his siege on Tyre and had to arrive at a compromised agreement. Thus Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre. Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great, 240 years later. And furthermore, despite the prophet, the city of Tyre was eventually rebuilt.

Ezekiel tried his luck with another prophecy regarding Nebuchadnezzar:

Ezekiel 29:20: I have given him [Nebuchadnezzar] the land of Egypt as his recompense for which he has laboured, because they worked for me, says the Lord God.

Unfortunately, here too he failed! For Nebuchadnezzar never conquered Egypt.

The last prophecy we will look at is that by the prophet Jeremiah. He prophesied that Jehoiakim will have no successor:

Jeremiah 36:30: Therefore thus says the Lord concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah, he shall have none to sit on the throne of David.

Unfortunately his prophecy is proven false by another passage in the Bible: II Kings 24:6: So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.

Prophecies that can fail are further evidence that the Bible is by no means an error free book

Do you want more examples?

So why should I take your supposed prophecy (which is not even mentioned in the Torah) seriously, when countless other prophecies WHICH WERE EXPLICITLY mentioned in Jewish books seriously?

Joshua said...

JP, you don't seem to understand how the argument from personal incredulity works (not surprising since you are fond of it when it comes to many other issues). There are two problems here: First, you are making assertions about an entities moral nature. Given that, arguments about the inconsistency of your claims of its moral nature are just that, inconsistencies.

Second, the argument deals not at all with the question of why such a deity would be at all worth worshiping.

Shalmo said...

JP christians argue that the reason Jews have suffered so much throughout their history is because they denied Jesus. What do you say to that?

Isn't that the same way you are using the Holocaust to established the "truth" of Judaism.

What about Islam? Since Islam is the fastest growing religion, then arguably using your logic God is on the side of muslims. Heck he is even immigrating them in massive droves to the West. Does Hashem want them to take over the world?

The type of argument you are using can be used by all theists of all religions for their own ends. People see what they want to see and then use it to say God is on our side.

DrJ said...

I think the holocaust was god's punishment against those who remained orthodox, which is a sin. Had all Jews been reformed or baptized, their would have been no holocaust. He rewarded the secularists with a state of their own, while the yeshiva students died in the ovens while their rabbi leaders saved their own skins and bought their way to freedom.

Just as plausable a narrative as your dumbass explanation.

I know why you are so anti-zionist-- because the existence of the Jewish State contradicts your religion. That a Jewish state exists and succeeds proves your religion wrong. Just like Shalmo and his Muslim bretheren. A holocaust? Well you can make that fit into your dogma. But a secular Israel? It can't be reconciled.

alex said...

No, JP, if all Jews had remained VERY RIGHTEOUS according to the Torah, not if all Jews had remained Orthodox.

jewish philosopher said...

Shalmo, regarding Ahaz, Isaiah told him that Judah would not be annexed to Syria and it wasn’t.

Regarding Ezekiel and Tyre, I think it depends on how you interpret the verses.
http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH24-5A.htm

Regarding Ezekiel and Egypt, I believe that Nebuchadnezzar did successfully invade Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II_of_Babylon#Biography

Regarding Jehoiachin, he reigned only for three months and only in Jerusalem.

“Jews have suffered so much throughout their history is because they denied Jesus. What do you say to that?”

We suffered before Jesus too.

“Islam is the fastest growing religion”

So are most other religions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion

Joshua, God said He would do something and then He did it. You seem to be arguing “I don’t like that, so it cannot be true.” This is a classic example of the argument from personal incredulity and wishful thinking, which is irrational.

DrJ, “I think the holocaust was god's punishment against those who remained orthodox”
What’s the connection? I’ve made clear connection between the Jewish Enlightenment and the Holocaust. Getting pretty desperate out there DrJ. Maybe time to click off the porn sites and repent?

“Jewish state exists and succeeds”
Succeeds at what? Making a few million Jews sitting ducks for Islamic maniacs? Great.

DrJ said...

"I’ve made clear connection between the Jewish Enlightenment "

That's my point. No you haven't. I could just as easily correlate Jewish suffering with anything I want. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because A happened with B, does not mean A caused B.


Thats pretty illogical thinking JP, time to sober up before getting back to your programming.

But I am glad that you have finally solved the puzzle that has occupied man from time immemorial: the meaning of suffering. JP figured it out!

"Jewish state exists and succeeds”
Succeeds at what? Making a few million Jews sitting ducks for Islamic maniacs? Great."

At least we can fight and defend ourselves, unlike diaspora Jews who walked like sheep to their deaths. The likes of James von Brunn will come after you and all you will have are your prayers and mazzuzahs.

BTW, the average longevity of Israelis, even including the wars and terrorism, is longer than that in the US. (check WHO stats).

jewish philosopher said...

"Correlation does not equal causation."

Sure. You also can't prove smoking causes cancer.

"DR. LeVOIS: A risk factor is what we observe. You can't really observe causes. You can observe associations and in this case where we're not actually familiar enough with the underlying mechanisms to know exactly what the causes are, you put together information from a variety of sources and draw an inference."

http://www.tobacco.org/Misc/oshaglantz.html

"unlike diaspora Jews who walked like sheep to their deaths"

I guess being blown up in a mushroom cloud is more glamous.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Threats_to_Israel/Iran.html#use

DrJ said...

"Sure. You also can't prove smoking causes cancer."

Now you really show your ignorance of science.

In science inference about causation can be made from REPEATED observations or experimental manipulation. In the case of smoking it was determined by large studies tracking many people over a long time, controlling for other variables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation#Determining_causation

As opposed to your post which is the casual observation of one incidence of one event in time proximity to another. Its like saying someone honking caused a car accident because the drivers honked before the accident.

And also, BTW, herr doktor, telling smokers not to smoke because it causes cancer doesn't work. The only thing that works is change in public policy.

jewish philosopher said...

There have been innumerable instances in history of people sinning and God punishing. Just read the Bible. The Holocaust is one of the most recent and striking ones. Wouldn't it be prudent to take it seriously while you still have a chance?

Anonymous said...

This really belongs on the last thread, so please excuse my interrupting this discussion:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090609092055.htm

It seems that due to significnat differences in the way the limbs legs move, the avian repiratory system could not have evolved from dinosaurs.

Shalmo said...

"Shalmo, regarding Ahaz, Isaiah told him that Judah would not be annexed to Syria and it wasn’t."

Nope it says Ahaz would be beseiged by his enemies but he clearly was. Please read the whole passage I provided again

Read Isaiah 7:1-7 and then compare with II Chronicles 28:1, 5-6. The prophecy clearly failed.

"Regarding Ezekiel and Tyre, I think it depends on how you interpret the verses.
http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH24-5A.htm"

I have read christian/jewish apologetic websites like this before

the vivid description of the sack and fall of Tyre never happened. After a siege of thirteen years, until 573BC, Nebuchadnezzar lifted his siege on Tyre and had to arrive at a compromised agreement. Thus Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre. Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great, 240 years later. And furthermore, despite the prophet, the city of Tyre was eventually rebuilt.

Furthermore the prophecy says that Tyre shall never be rebuilt after the destruction by Nebuchadnezzar-which never happened-since he never destroyed the city. Even after the destruction by Alexander the Great, the city was still rebuilt. In fact the city of Tyre was even referred to, by that name, in the New Testament (Mark 7:24, Acts 12:20). Tyre exists to this day and has a population of about 12,000.

"Regarding Ezekiel and Egypt, I believe that Nebuchadnezzar did successfully invade Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II_of_Babylon#Biography"

Nope, the passage says he would conquer Egypt which all the history books show he never did

"Regarding Jehoiachin, he reigned only for three months and only in Jerusalem."

Nice try!

But even you that what I said was that the prophcy of Jeremiah states he would have no successor when clearly II Kings 24:6 shows that he indeed has heirs

With so many failed prophecies and others I am more than wiling to fill you in on, how can you make the Holocaust a prophecy when all the othr bible prophecies are such a bust?

"We suffered before Jesus too."

Maybe, but thats not the point

The point was that every theist can use natural events to claim their religion right just as christians claim Jewish suffering comes from their deicide of God/Jesus. Its no different than your holocaust claim

"So are most other religions."

According to the CIA world book and the Christian Science Monitor, with similar claims from CNN and Time Magazine all point to Islam as the fastest growing religion, and all are clearly non-muslim sources.

I am simply speaking on your Holocaust claim

Just as you are using the Holocaust to "prove" Judaism right, a muslim could use Islam rapid growth as proof of his religion

What I am doing is trying to get you to see is that all theists of all religions can use natural events to claim their religion is true.

Are the sky-rocketing rates of intermarriage and apostacy that are quickly destroying Jewry today punishment from God? for what Jews are doing in Palestine?

If not then why the special pleadings with your Holocaust example?

"“Jewish state exists and succeeds”
Succeeds at what? Making a few million Jews sitting ducks for Islamic maniacs? Great."

Jews are better of in Canada and the US than Israel no doubt about it, because then at least they are not inhabiting stolen land. Israel is gonna be nuked in our lifetimes so no need ton worry about zionism, it aint gonna last long. Hopefully bigots like DrJ will remain in Israel while the nuking is happening.

jewish philosopher said...

About prophesies, bear in mind also that if someone repents, then the evil decree may be cancelled, as we see regarding Ninveh in the Book of Jonah.

About fast growing religions, I don't see the big deal. Sixty years ago, the whole world was turning Communist. Probably 1,500 years ago Christianity was the fastest growing. Orthodox Jews are also doing pretty well today, with our high birth rate.

About the Holocaust, DrJ, Joshua, etc let me take another shot at this.

Let's say you have a girlfriend. And this girlfriend has a husband. And this husband is an explosives expert for the military.

One night, you get a phone call from the husband. He informs you that if you meet his wife again, he will kill you.

Tomorrow, you meet his wife.

Two days later, as you get into your car and turn on the ignition, the car explodes.

I would say based on this information that the husband did it. He had a motive, he made a threat and he had the ability to carry it out.

You could argue that the threat was ambiguous. You could say it's untestable; in science inference about causation can be made from REPEATED observations or experimental manipulation. You could argue it's just coincedence.

I would say that at very least, if you continue dating this lady, you are a moron and deserve whatever happens to you.

Shalmo said...

"About prophesies, bear in mind also that if someone repents, then the evil decree may be cancelled, as we see regarding Ninveh in the Book of Jonah."

You are ignoring that in the case of Jonah 3 the text specifically says that civilization avoided destruction by prayer and repentence. However in the case of the failed prophecies I cited no such issue exists. Furthermore what about the Jehoiachin having no heir in contrast to what Jeremiah said. What does him repenting have to do with the prophet stating that he would have no heir? They are unrelated issue and makes this a very weak apologetic

My claim with the fastest growing religion thing is an argument against your claim that the Holocaust proves Judaism

If natural human events can be used by you as proof of your religion, then so can it be used by people of other religion

A muslim can argue that because Islam is the fastest growing religion, therefore it must be true

A christian will argue that Jewish suffering is fully deserving because Jews killed Jesus. And as the New Testament records just as Jesus said all generations of Jewry must pay for his murder thus christians believe Jewish suffering is prophetic of this curse

So how is this any different than your claim that Holocaust proves Judaism?

If so then why can't Jewish suffering "prove" christianity?

The Holocaust being a punishment by God upon Jewry for abandoning Judaism has no more merit than Christianity's claim that Jews suffer because they killed Jesus. You need to provide evidence why one scenario is divine and the other isn't

Or you can just accept that all theists use natural human events to say God is on their side, and thus you can never use it to prove your religion is right.

DrJ said...

Bad analogy.

Anyway, you can continue to believe your dogma if you want. Either way you're on the wrong side of history. You're either constantly getting punished by god (presumably for the sins of others) or getting persecuted because of self-inflicted hatred, such as by writing such a blog.

Good luck.

Anonymous said...

More anti-Darwinism stuff:


http://www.genomicsnetwork.ac.uk/media/EGN%20Newsletter%2004-09%20For%20Print.pdf

DrJ said...

Since there always has been and will always be some sinning Jews (by your own definitions), you can always attribute the perpetual Jewish suffering to this sinning. Morever, according to your philosophy Jews must continue to suffer forever, since they will never not sin. Sounds kind of Christian to me.

Its also not clear whioh sins qualify for a holocaust, as opposed to, say, merely a pogrom or an inquisition or a plague. Perhaps porn or masturbation warrants another holocaust, don't you say?

Have you yet figured out the cause of your own suffering?

Very inspiring and rational philosophy. If you actually manage to convince even one person of this idea, then give me his phone number.

jewish philosopher said...

"you can continue to believe your dogma if you want"

This blog does not contain an ounce of dogma. All of my beliefs are examined rigorously and based on facts.

"So how is this any different than your claim that Holocaust proves Judaism?"

My claim is more convincing. The popularity of Islam proves nothing except that most people are idiots.

"you can always attribute the perpetual Jewish suffering to this sinning"

Which is true. Every sin is punished and the punishment is always big. Read the Bible for hundreds of examples. Your wishful thinking is irrational and unhelpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking

Just as aside, I want to point out that the worst suffering experienced in this world is far milder than the suffering of even a moment in the mildest section of hell. Auschwitz, while certainly unpleasant, was a five star resort hotel with room service in Hawaii compared to hell.

Therefore whenever a person does experience suffering in this world he should literally jump for joy. The punishment for his sins has been commuted to a far milder punishment than he would otherwise have received in the afterlife.

Imagine how a convicted criminal would feel if the judge changed his sentence to one year on parole rather than life in a maximum security prison.

The rabbis taught “one must receive the evil with gladness” Talmud Berakoth 60b

http://www.come-and-hear.com/berakoth/berakoth_60.html#PARTb

DrJ said...

According to the Rambam (hilchot Teshuva) there is no hell, just olam habah or, for unrepentant sinners like me, absence thereof.

Doesn't sound so bad, I'm thinking that after I die I don't want to spend the rest of eternity floating around with Tzadikim like you.

DrJ said...

Your descriptions of hell are more in line with classic Muslim or Christian concepts, not Jewish.

jewish philosopher said...

Fire is one-sixtieth part of Gehinnom.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakoth Folio 57b

http://www.come-and-hear.com/berakoth/berakoth_57.html#PARTb

המינין והמסורות {והמשומדים} והאפיקורסים שכפרו בתורה ושכפרו בתחיית המתים ושפירשו מדרכי צבור ושנתנו חיתיתם בארץ חיים ושחטאו והחטיאו את הרבים כגון ירבעם בן נבט וחביריו יורדין לגיהנם ונידונין בה לדורי דורות
מסכת ראש השנה דף יז,א

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/l/l2401.htm

Have you ever seen a living person actually burning, on fire, screaming in pain? I have. Now multiply that by sixty. Then multiply that by eternity. Quite something to look forward to, my little DrJ.

In another fifty years or so, I will be basking in the eternal ecstasy of the Divine Presence. And part of my boundless joy will be watching you and other slimeball traitors burning and suffering endlessly in hell. I can hardly wait.

Shalmo said...

I would just like to correct a few falsehoods pouted by DrJ. Contrary to his post, the Rambam very much did believe in eternal Hell:

"Hell is a place of fire where sinners are punished after they die. Certain classes of people who deny religion receive eternal punishment there" : (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Teshuvah 3:5-6)

There is also from the Talmud:

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

He also seems to be as confused about the muslim Hell as he is about his own religion. Muslims do not believe in Hell at all. There is Jahannum yes, but that is more like non-existence, as opposed to eternal punishment in fire which the Jewish version advocates.

jewish philosopher said...

I would like to find something DrJ has ever written which isn't false. This guy must be amazing in real life.

DrJ said...

Both of Shalmos quotations are false and harvested from internet sources without checking the original text. His ignorance is astounding.

The Rambam in the section mentioned makes no reference at all to hell. Evil people simply lose out on Olam Habah.

The talmud in eruvin makes no mention of "hell", the conversation is obviously rhetorical, and the talmud concludes that the statement is wrong.

As far as your berochot quote, JP, it is one of many and contradictory aggadic sources, which include many other interesting statements about ghosts, spirits, and other things.

No Jew (except you) takes them literally seriously.

DrJ said...

"And part of my boundless joy will be watching you and other slimeball traitors burning and suffering endlessly in hell. I can hardly wait."

Then why don't you just kill yourself now and get there faster?

And I will happily make the bet that you are wrong and nothing awaits you but nothingness and worms.

Because in the meantime people like me will be watching and laughing at people like you, who listen to what rabbis joked around about 1600 years ago and believe it.

As far as Muslim hell, I suggest that Shalmo correct the wiki entry, which is apparently wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Islam

jewish philosopher said...

"I will happily make the bet that you are wrong"

And if you are right, what am I missing out on? Prostitutes? Cocaine? I'm not losing anything anyway.

DrJ, just like no substance abuser takes the consequences of his behavior seriously, until he hits rock bottom, so no atheist takes hell seriously. Until he gets there. I will enjoy watching you screaming in agony forever.

DrJ said...

"And if you are right, what am I missing out on? Prostitutes? Cocaine?

Is that the only alternative? No prostitutes or cocaine for me, either (no hell or god needed). Unfortunately you are only able to see a black or white either/or truth, which is characteristic of BTs.

"I'm not losing anything anyway."

You will have wasted all of your life's effort and sacrificed your relationship with your family for a false idea. How's that?

"so no atheist takes hell seriously. Until he gets there. I will enjoy watching you screaming in agony forever."

Admittedly, it is a comforting idea that our adversaries will ultimately suffer, even if there is no justice in our lifetimes. But that its comforting (to some) doesn't make it true.

If your whole philosophy hinges on a fear of an unknown and uncertain hell, it is one doozy of a house of cards.

jewish philosopher said...

Please, DrJ, I've done the research. I'm very familiar with the atheistic lifestyle.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/05/rational-response-squad.html

So that's what it boils down to - a life chasing false happiness by snorting coke and whoremongering. A nightmarish life which is an appropriate prelude to the endless fires of damnation.

On the other hand, the true loyal Jew lives a life of constant joy, reaching ever higher levels of loving God.

http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/04/real-happiness.html

This is merely a prelude to an eternity of boundless joy absorbing the glow of the Divine Presence in Paradise.

I would almost feel sorry for people like you DrJ, but then I remember that you are deliberately inflicting this upon yourself. You are making your bed, and you will sleep in it.

DrJ said...

Great narrative, JP.
A god who makes a world full of suffering for man, so that afterwords man can go to heaven or hell. Makes alot of sense. Makes god sound like a bad joke.

Sounds like a child's fairy tale.

Go on living your silly myths if it makes you happy.

jewish philosopher said...

Do you ever actually read the Torah DrJ? God created man in the Garden of Eden. From there, things have gone a little down hill - because of us, not Him.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0102.htm#8

DrJ said...

If He made us that way so it should be His fault. He even "regretted" it, whatever that means. So much for His perfection. He made man that "fell", as the Christians say.

The story is but a parable, a moral tale, thats all. Otherwise why should we suffer for His facockte design?

I read the torah, all right, but with open eyes.

jewish philosopher said...

And like every addict, all your crimes are everyone else's fault, not your own. Good luck with that.

jewish philosopher said...

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/dyna/a/uc_sgt.htm

Shalmo said...

DrJ don't act like a two-year old

Could you please show me how my quotations are false? If they are I don't mind being corrected, though in my opinion I think you simply making stuff to undo the fact the Talmud very much speaks on eternal Hell.

Its ironic you of all people are lecturing me on Judaism when on so many occassions I have had to correct some clear falsehoods you have had about the religion, such your previous take on the Esther story having basis in reality where as the rest of the world clearly knows the story is made up

Finally why are you learning about Islam (or any religion) from wikipedia? Most wiki entries on islam are written by atheists (just check the users of most of the articles) who clearly have an agenda in mind.

Would like it if other people learned about Judaism (or even your twisted version of it) from wikipedia?

But if you are interested here are a few places to get started:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml

www.al-islam.org

http://www.islamicity.com/

PS: I am not going bother telling you all sorts of things that are wrong in that wiki entry. You need to be responsible enough to not go looking for weak sources on learning about other people's faith.

DrJ said...

"And like every addict, all your crimes are everyone else's fault, not your own"

This is only according to your god theology, not mine. Since I don't believe in your god, I take responsibility for my actions for ethical humanistic reasons, not out of any fear of hell. And since god didn't make me, I don't blame him for my flaws. They are my own. Your obvious flaws, on the other hand, are your god's handiwork.

jewish philosopher said...

"I don't blame him for my flaws. They are my own."

That much is true.

DrJ said...

Shalmo, check the texts that you quoted yourself, if you can read hebrew. They say nothing about hell. At JP's mamre site for example.

Shalmo said...

I did check them before I posted them which is why I am curious what you think you are pulling here.

onionsoupmix said...

Many orthodox groups, including chassidic ones, do not believe in the brimstone fire and hell that you espouse.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/215,191/Is-the-concept-of-an-afterlife-a-Jewish-belief.html

Get an education before you spout off. At least get an education about the topic you are spouting about.

jewish philosopher said...

Onion, have you ever bothered to read my profile:

This blog as a rule follows the teachings of the Lithuanian rabbinical seminaries of the 1920s and 1930s.

I'm not Lubavitch, sorry.

onionsoupmix said...

I read your crap about what you follow. I've also contacted people whom you claim to be your rabbis. They all say you are a nut job and they want nothing to do with your site.

It doesn't matter whether you are chabad or not. There are other valid views out there on the question of hell and you are intellectually dishonest if you don't agree that Dr J and others who disagree with you on this issue have considerable support in the frum community.

jewish philosopher said...

Well, I contacted the manager of the Bunny Ranch and he said you can audition again if you lose 20 pounds. ;-)

And I've never claimed that every Frum person agrees with everything I've written.

Anonymous said...

JP, this argument (much expanded) is what Aish HaTorah calls 'the miracle of Jewish history.'

It's not just that Jews have survived for so long, against the odds (and impacted so far beyond their numbers), but that their entire history is very much self-contradictory (small in number, large impact, hated when rich/hated when poor, hated for being different/hated when similar, told to go back to Palestine/told to go back to Europe).

If you are familiar with Rabbi Ken Spiro, he teaches a class on this.

a said...

josephus says that the king of bablon was defeated.As for tyre do you have a good answer?

jewish philosopher said...

Regarding Ezekiel and Tyre, I think it depends on how you interpret the verses.
http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH24-5A.htm

a said...

qouting a goyish minstry?1

Anonymous said...

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/224,2213468/He-Needed-A-Sign-An-Askmoses-Story.html

this shows another reason the holocaust could have happened.

p.s. i am considering converting and i follow Chaissiam (Chabad) Sorry, i have a tendency to spell incorrectly at times :)

I know this is way late but congrats on your conversion it seems like you went though a lot of hardship to get there.
G-d Bless

Anonymous said...

You might add to your arguments that the Germans had abandoned God too.

Nowhere in the Western Europe the secularization had been so thorough and rampant as in Germany.