Friday, May 16, 2008

Genocide – Why I Support It


[skulls remaining from mass murders in Cambodia]

There are several instances where the Torah mandates genocide – the extermination of an entire ethnic group. Those instances are:

In Deut. 20:16 God commands the extermination of the Canaanites.

In Deut. 25:19 God commands the extermination of the Amalekites.

In Numbers 31:17 Moses commands the Israelites to kill most of the Midianite prisons of war, leaving only the virgin females as slaves.

However, Psalms 145:9 states “The LORD is good to all; and His tender mercies are over all His works.” How then could God mandate the slaughter of children, old women and other apparently harmless, innocent people? This seems to contradict God’s basic kindness and goodness and the entire spirit of the Torah. The prophet Micah 6:8 stated clearly “He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired from you by the Lord; only doing what is right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God.” Therefore, how can God command people to slaughter others?

I believe the answer is very simple – all these killings were perfectly justified based on the principle of self-defense.

Each of these groups represented a dire threat to the Israelites. In regards to the Canaanites, Deut. 20:18 states that if not eliminated, they will teach the Israelites their sinful practices. Deut. 25:18 mentions the unprovoked attack by the Amalekites on the Israelites, perhaps implying that they will surely attack again if left unmolested. Also, a lack of retribution might have been a sign of weakness, putting the Israelites in danger from other attackers. Numbers 25:18 mentions the involvement of a Midianite noblewoman in the spiritual corruption of the Israelites. Based on this, Moses understood that the Midianites were a very dangerous influence that had to be eliminated.

The common denominator here seems to be that any group of people who posed a serious threat to the Israelites, either physically or spiritually, had to be eradicated, provided that God or Moses explicitly mandated it. Rather than murder, these killings were righteous acts of self-defense.

This was not, however, a principle applied to all future conflicts with gentiles. We do not find, for example, a scorched earth policy applied to the Philistines by the Israelites or to any other opponents in war. These three groups were special cases, ordained by God or Moses, which were so dangerous that they had to be eliminated.

34 comments:

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

"I believe the answer is very simple – all these killings were perfectly justified based on the principle of self-defense."

All perpetrators of genocide claim the exact same thing. Just goes to show genocide is not inspired by Darwin.

jewish philosopher said...

Different holocausts have different causes.

I think most historians agree that the Nazi holocaust was based primarily on two documents: "On the Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther and "On the Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin. Lutherans and Darwinists are naturally not too happy about this.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

Actually, historians say the exact opposite. If you were the least bit cognizant of the historiography, you know historians now generally accept that the Nazis did not happen upon Luther's writings until after the establishment of their beliefs.

As for Darwin, everyone knows that the Germans, while deploying the verbiage of artificial selection reject key components of evolution like common descent. Hitler's creationists leanings, however, are well documented.

Not only that, but there is no evidence that Germany's allies like the Iron Guard, the Blue Guard, the Ustashi, The Chetniks, Zbor, or the Hiwis, ever read Darwin, much less were influenced by his beliefs.

Now the evidence that the above groups believed the Jews to be a "serious threat to themselves either physically or spiritually" and thus "had to be eradicated" in "righteous acts of 'self-defense'."
is conclusive and above reproach.

But it is nice to see you moved beyond your argument that the Jews did it to themselves. My loving corrective discipline will drive the stupid out of you yet.

jewish philosopher said...

"Hitler's creationists leanings, however, are well documented."

Not really. Hitler was not a scientist or a theologian, however there is no question that his philisophical roots went back to Darwin and Luther.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

"there is no question that his philisophical (sic)roots went back to Darwin and Luther."

Obviously there is a great deal of question about given your opinion is an outlying opinion, viewed as either extreme or not worthy of comment by most of the real historians.

At least you've beyond plagiarizing Ernest Zundel and Irving shared view the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves.

DrJ said...

The subject of this post is self-evident. There's no chiddush here.

JP, all you are saying is that normatively in the past mass slaughter of your enemies was an acceptable form of warfare, and nowadays it isn't. Back then they weren't considered criminals, now they are.

All of this speaks to human nature: we care about ourselves and those most like us more than anybody else, and we are willing to brutally defend ourselves from a perceived threat.

Think about it. Even you liberals out there. What do you really care about more, your own itching and bleeding hemorrhoids or 100,000 people dying in Myanmar? Be honest!!

jewish philosopher said...

Unmolested, it's interesting how any debate with atheists seems to end up discussing Darwin. This seems to be atheism's basic proof "The fossils support Darwin, not Genesis. Therefore atheism is correct." That's pretty debatable, depending on how you interpret the fossils and Genesis.

DrJ, I'm still no sure about your basic concept that seems to be "as science advances so does morality". There are plenty of dead civilians in Iraq who might disagree.

DrJ said...

JP,

From a purely theoretical point of view, we disagree, but in reality the two systems converge, just for different reasons. I say that moral change occurs because of man/science, etc, you say its because of God's direction or lack thereof, leaving morality to man's interpretation. They lead to the same place maybe 80% of the time. So we both can agree that at present genocide is bad, and kindness and generosity are good.

As I mentioned previously Steve Pinker demonstrated that as a ratio violence in the world has decreased dramatically over the past millenia. The chances of a man befalling a violent death at the hands of another man has steadily declined. (you can't use absolute numbers because of the population increase).

I suppose that this is a good thing, I hope you agree...

jewish philosopher said...

I have seen Dr. Pinker’s lecture on youtube and as far as I can tell, basically what he is saying is that the rate of violent crime in the interior of New Guinea (where there is no law enforcement) is much higher than the rate of violent crime in the United States and Europe. Based upon this, he seems to conclude that higher levels of secularism lead to lower levels of violence. I’m not sure this is really rigorous science.

I see violence as resulting from either a lack of fear of law enforcement or a lack of fear of God. Ideally, if there are both, a belief that man and God will punish violence, violence can be eliminated.

A belief in evolution or in science or materialism doesn't seem to decrease violence too much, as we saw from Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

badrabbi said...

Just to keep score, here are the themes to your latest blog topics:

1. "Genocide - Why I support it"
2. "Slavery - Is it evil?"
3. "Cannibalism - Think outside the box"

JP, you are doing a fine job of exposing your ideas.

Keep writing!

DrJ said...

You seem to have missed the whole thrust of the lecture. The point was not comparing present New Guinea with the US, nor to prove that secularism leads to less violence. He was demonstrating the decline WORLDWIDE of violence over a long period of time. This, despite the subjective perception that many of us have of the world becoming a more violent place.

He then posits several possible explanation for the factual truth of this decline. One is globalism, that the circle of people that we care about has enlarged. Another is communication and media, and the ability of everybody to instantly witness carnage thousands of miles away, and people don't have a tolerance for that. Finally, it is the progressive march of man's morality due to awareness of his mistakes of the past, of maturity. What made us stop slavery, discrimination, and allow women full equality? What do you think brough about that change, sociologically?

This could happen because of or in spite of religion.

jewish philosopher said...

I think it could be argued that greater education has led to greater civil rights, but it's really spotty. Russia is moving back to a more oppresive regime.

Regarding violence in general, I just don't know what reliable statistics exist for violent crime or war deaths 500 years ago, 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago. And then is abortion violence? And if not why not?

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

"Unmolested, it's interesting how any debate with atheists seems to end up discussing Darwin. This seems to be atheism's basic proof "

Well it seems that you brought it up for serious debate. (Yes I realize I mocked you with a reference to it).

"I see violence as resulting from either a lack of fear of law enforcement or a lack of fear of God. Ideally, if there are both, a belief that man and God will punish violence, violence can be eliminated."

Good theory, which explains why Iran is crime free. You have some of the scariest police on the planet combined with high levels of religious belief.

"Regarding violence in general, I just don't know what reliable statistics exist for violent crime or war deaths 500 years ago, 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago."

Then go do some G-d damn research. For the love of the Talmud when did personal ignorance become a scholarly talking point.

"A belief in evolution or in science or materialism doesn't seem to decrease violence too much, as we saw from Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union."

Well that is probably because neither the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany believed in evolution.

jewish philosopher said...

"Good theory, which explains why Iran is crime free." Do Iranians believe God will punish violence? Sources please.

"Then go do some G-d damn research." Where?

"Well that is probably because neither the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany believed in evolution."

My wife, who was raised in the Soviet Union, seemed to have been taught about evolution.

Another load of atheistic drivel.

Joseph said...

Balaam described Amalek as "the first of the nations" even despite the fact that Amalek was not mentioned in the list of Noah's descendants. Clearly, the Amalekites are not descended from Noah. Since Noah was the ancestor of all humanity, the Amalekites aren't human.

In accordance with the commandment, as humanity expands into space we must be on our guard and be ready to fight Amalek of Borg.

Resistance won't be futile.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

""Good theory, which explains why Iran is crime free." Do Iranians believe God will punish violence? Sources please."

Sources? Jacob this is a either a very sly ply to make it look like I am making shit up or you're completely uninformed.

The former makes you a dishonest bastard and the latter makes you a total mongoloid. I'll let you select.

As for sources try the CIA world fact book information on their religious preference and then read the Koran.

""Then go do some G-d damn research." Where?"

Well Jacob, pick the conflict or wars you are interesting in learning about and find the standard historiography, and read about them.

"My wife, who was raised in the Soviet Union, seemed to have been taught about evolution."

Which wife would that be? The current one, or the one you ditched because you thought you "would have greater sexual satisfaction in a different relationship" despite the risk of disease and depression you warned us about?

Assuming you are not making this up, since you're a proven liar, libeler (sp?) and plagiarist, go read Steven Pinker's blank slate, or Peter Singer's Darwinian Left, or the other books Cameron and I have told you to read. They show that while the USSR, some Americans, and even some Germans MOUTHED ACCEPTANCE of EVOLUTION AND EVEN DEPLOYED ITS VERBIAGE THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IT AS IT TRULY EXISTED OR IGNORED ITS IMPLICATIONS.

Of course Jacob, you'll keep making shit up because its a lot easier than engaging in real scholarship, or even reading a book or two.

Jacob, I fear how you would behave if you didn't believe that your God ogled you in shower and read your thoughts.

jewish philosopher said...

Not one specific source. No intelligent comments. Obscenity. Personal insults. This is the atheistic argument.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

"Not one specific source."

Actually I cited the CIA world fact book and the Koran. I also told you to read Steven Pinker's blank slate, or Peter Singer's Darwinian Left, or the other books Cameron and I have told you to read.

That's four specific sources on the issue.

"Obscenity. Personal insults."

Yeah, I swear a lot from days in the military. There is nothing wrong with it.

As for personal insults, nothing I said was false. If you do not like it change how you behave.

"This is the atheistic argument."

Actually this is not an argument much less an atheistic one. This is the reaction you would get if you trotted into any university on the planet with your demands for sources for common knowledge facts, demanded that historians give you sources for "reliable statistics exist for violent crime or war deaths 500 years ago, 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago" and then plagiarize their work or slander them.

Let see, Jacob's comment has not one specific source. No intelligent comments. Personal insults. This is the idiot argument.

jewish philosopher said...

"The Koran" or the "CIA Factbook" are not specific sources.

Saying that I "ditched" my first wife because of "sexual satisifaction" is false.

Aren't you going to taunt me about having a handicapped son, or have you forgetten about that?

I love you Unmolested. You are a perfect example of the atheist.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Man yo, I feel like I'm the only guy who ever reads this who actually agrees with Mr. Stein!

Check it- I was thinking while reading these posts; what if you're a secular atheist, someone who feels atheism is the true redeemer of the world- that with atheism world peace would come, and there would never be violence again. And what if you found out that there was a group of 'creationist bad guys' or something, who made a time machine and want to kill Charles Darwin (supposing he was the head and founder of atheism...which he obviously was not), hide his work, and destroy all people of atheistic leanings in the 19th-20th centuries. Wouldn't you go back in time too to put an end to all these creationist evil doers , save Darwin and his books, and therefore redeem the world forever?!

So think about it the other way; these guys (Amalek, Midyan and Canaan) were threatening to physically and spiritually destroy the last bastions of true and objective goodness and justice in the world for all time! Think about it- the opposite of Hitlers argument- no Jews- no Christians- no French revolution- no democracy. No Muslims- no math- no innovation- no books- no learning! I don't necessarily believe this, but I do think it's a legitimate world-view..

I mean in all honesty; the Jews weren't killing the 'pure Germans'. They were just wealthier than the average German and of a slightly different racial stock, that's all..

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

Wow!!! I that's an amazing amount of craziness even for the internet.

"So think about it the other way; these guys (Amalek, Midyan and Canaan) were threatening to physically and spiritually destroy the last bastions of true and objective goodness and justice in the world for all time! "

Like I said in the first comment, every dictator, tryanny, local lunatic who engages in genocide claims the same thing.

And we've found that these claims were completely bogus. Just like Jacob's defense here.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Listen altar boy man, I'm happy you weren't molested (I am! High five for Catholics! (Borat reference), but look; it's true, I'm telling you man, 'pagan' society is what today we consider 'evil' society. Those guys seriously glorify everything we consider evil (like the 'doomsday nihilism' Nietzsche was afraid with the absence of Christianity- I mean look at the morals of most of the Greeks and the Romans- what direction was that going?!). Mosaic Judaism (in all opinions) brought much good into the world. Not Sadamist Iraq, not Maoist China, and for G-d's sake not Nazi Germany man! And like I said- we were provoked. They weren't (trust me, China is NOT protecting itself from Tibet!), it was WE who risked annihilation- us or them- and it damned as hell wasn't going to be us!

But see it this way too man; we all have a bias- but conflict is still deadly. Today for example we (in America) call people in the middle east protecting the last bastions of decent and pure Islamic life from the oil and blood hungry American barbarians as "terrorism". We consider wiping out an entire continent of it's native peoples (American Indians) as "manifest destiny". So who is the bad guy here? Better yet; who decides? In a world with no G-d- no one. Whatever ideology you see as right. Where would that leave us?...

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

"I'm telling you man, 'pagan' society is what today we consider 'evil' society. "

I am sure they were bad people. However, if you haven't noticed we also view genocide as an evil activity.

"it was WE who risked annihilation- us or them- and it damned as hell wasn't going to be us!"

Look, I read and listen to similar attitudes from today's perpetrators of genocide as well. The Serbs claim the same thing about Kosovo, Croatia, Bosnia, and other parts of Yugoslavia.

". Today for example we (in America) call people in the middle east protecting the last bastions of decent and pure Islamic life from the oil and blood hungry American barbarians as "terrorism". We consider wiping out an entire continent of it's native peoples (American Indians) as "manifest destiny". So who is the bad guy here? Better yet; who decides? In a world with no G-d- no one."

Uhh, even in a world with g-d, no one gets to decide. Why? because g-d doesn't answer.

Anyway, Jacob's post shows that religion, even Judaism, is no barrier to horrific acts of evil like genocide because Judaism is okay with mass murder as long as it supports Judaism interests.

jewish philosopher said...

"Anyway, Jacob's post shows that religion, even Judaism, is no barrier to horrific acts of evil like genocide because Judaism is okay with mass murder as long as it supports Judaism interests."

It's ashame you can't stay sober long enough to write something that makes any sense. But what can we expect of a moral degenerate. Judaism is OK with mass murder in those three cases which happened three thousand years ago.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

"The Koran" or the "CIA Factbook" are not specific sources.

Yeah, they are. In any event, what I said was common knowledge.

"Saying that I "ditched" my first wife because of "sexual satisifaction" is false."

Yeah, right. That's right, your wife left you. Of course, its her fault she left the upright Jacob Stein.

Bullshit, you are simply lying because you wanna keep they got divorce hammer to use on Dawkins and Harris and other atheists.

"
Aren't you going to taunt me about having a handicapped son, or have you forgetten about that?"

I never taunted you about having a differently abled son." You stated that the Holocaust was caused by God to punish the Jews for sinning. Obviously if that is true, then you or your second wife must have really sinned to make him punish you.

I merely inquired about your transgression so I could avoid a similar fate.

"I love you Unmolested. You are a perfect example of the atheist."

A lot of people do. The people I work with find me intelligent, articulate, well-educated, and entertaining. Others find me charitable, civic-minded, and a great person to be around.

Of course, I've also found that the attitude people have toward is frequently based on education level. Smart people and the educated generally like me. This tends to change as education and IQ levels fall, so maybe I am acquired taste.

jewish philosopher said...

After you carry your crippled son to the toilet a few times a day, then brag to me about what a great, likable person you are.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

"
It's ashame you can't stay sober long enough to write something that makes any sense. But what can we expect of a moral degenerate. Judaism is OK with mass murder in those three cases which happened three thousand years ago."

Yep, and those acts of mass murder now provide examples that others can follow. Check out Fighting Words by Hector Avalos for his dissection of Keith Ward's original defense of Judaism using this argument. I can't remember the page, so you'll have to use the index.

jewish philosopher said...

Avalos is an atheistic bigot.

It's funny that we Orthodox Jews don't follow the example which supposedly Moses created for us. We aren't killing anyone.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

No intelligent comments. Personal insult. This is your argument? Avalos is bigot?

Also, you're not deleting Cameron's posts are you?

It's funny that we Orthodox Jews don't follow the example which supposedly Moses created for us. We aren't killing anyone.

Not really. As Einstein noted, Orthodox Jews have never had power, so they've always been forced to toe the line and behave.

Now that Orthodox Jews have some power, we see they aren't so nice http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080520/32455_Orthodox_Jewish_Youths_Burn_New_Testaments_in_Israel.htm)
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/77407
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/985362.html

jewish philosopher said...

Islamic terrorists seem to cause plenty of deaths without having their own state. So did the Irish Republican Army. The reason Orthodox Jews are not violent is because we don't believe in violence.

Burning book which a missionary gave you doesn't seem that terrible to me. If I would try to convert Christians in Italy or Ireland or Poland or Utah to Judaism, how far would I get? And if I tried to convert Muslims in Saudi Arabia or Iran I would be killed immediately.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

Islamic terrorists seem to cause plenty of deaths without having their own state

There are almost 50 Muslim majority states and over 50 Muslim plurality states in the world for Islamic terrorist to operate out of.

The IRA had places like Libya, Lebanon, and later Croatia and Colombia which it comes find some sanctuary. Not to mention supporters in the US.

The reason Orthodox Jews are not violent is because they lack the ability to be violent and get away with it. Even the Israeli government would slap you down if you got uppity.

jewish philosopher said...

50 Muslim states support terrorism and Colombia supports the IRA. Does President Bush or the UN know about this? Does anyone else except some wacked out atheists like you know this?

So if religious people are violent, that of course proves religion is evil and if religious people are not violent, that just means they didn't have a chance to be. On the other hand, if atheists destroy tens of millions people in labor camps or abortion clinics, that has nothing to do with atheism being evil. That is all caused by something else. The only real atheists are peaceful Danes and Swedes, who oddly for atheists celebrate Christian holidays and have a cross on their national flags.

Only a completely warped mind thinks this way, or a drunk like Christopher Hitchens.

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

50 Muslim states support terrorism and Colombia supports the IRA. Does President Bush or the UN know about this? Does anyone else except some wacked out atheists like you know this?

I never said that. I said "There are almost 50 Muslim majority states and over 50 Muslim plurality states in the world for Islamic terrorist to operate out of."

Stop making shit up Jacob. Bearing false witness, unlike abortion or cannibalism is a sin under the Big 10 Commandments.

Jacob, when David sent that soldier to die on the front so he could score with his wife, God punished him by killing his kid. You think God might punish a degenerate, plagaziring, divorced liar similarly, but with a reduced penalty since lying is less harmful than arranging a death?

Nor did I said Colombia supported the IRA. I said the IRA found sanctuary. Look up the Colombia 3.

"So if religious people are violent, that of course proves religion is evil and if religious people are not violent, that just means they didn't have a chance to be."

Well your religion condones and order genocide. This is something this blog post admits and then attempts to defend using the same style rhetoric as Hitler, Pavelic, and other genocidiars., whom, like you, claim to have god on their side.

Jacob, Orthodox Judaism is like the crippled, no limb, junkie that hangs around where I used to work. He was bellicose, threatened violence, and talked shit, much like yo do. He bragged about how violent he was in the past, like your Talmud and the Old Testament, yet was unable to carry out those threats, why?

Because he lacked the ability.

"On the other hand, if atheists destroy tens of millions people in labor camps or abortion clinics, that has nothing to do with atheism being evil."

That is because atheism is nothing more than the disbelief in god. It is like discovering Santa, the Tooth Fairy, astrology, elves are all fake too. It is the grown up version of discovering there are no monsters under your bed.

Blaming atheism is like blaming the mustache. After all Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Franco, Saddam, Castro, and Che, among other tyrants had mustaches, you gotta blame the facial hair.

jewish philosopher said...

True, Jews did commit genocide in three specific cases 3,000 years ago. However I think very few nationalities have never engaged in atrocities ever in the past 3,000 years. So what does it really prove? At worst, that Jews are human? And, from an atheistic point of view, those Jewish genocides never even actually happened.

Why do you think Orthodox Jews could not kill now? One of my neighbors, a Christian, was recently convicted of hiring someone to kill his wife who was in the process of divorcing him. Find one Orthodox Jew who has done that and you win my $1,000 Jewish Philosopher Research award.

As far as all the murders committed by atheists, it could just be coincidental that so many atheists are so brutal. Or it could be that since atheists don't believe that there exists a God who punishes murderers, they feel free to kill people. That's just a really remote possibility.

I would rather have a monster under my bed than an atheist under my bed. Or actually, it may be the same thing.