Tuesday, April 15, 2008

Secular Ethics and Morality - an Example


After the video finishes, click inside the box and see reviews and comments. Here's a couple "whaahaha this is very funny abortion man xD" "it's great that we can make abortions funny now. cause i've always laughed at them".

29 comments:

Unmolested Altar Boy said...

Deploying Jacob's anti-conspiracy theory argument for a moment, what do you all believe is more probably, that Jacob is some unrecognized genius and smarter than the average evolutionary biologist (not to mention all the other scholars in all the other fields his view conflict with) or that does know what he's talking about?

jewish philosopher said...

Were Jews in Renaissance Europe smarter than all the Christian professors who believed in Jesus, including Newton, Galileo and Copernicus? There will always be people honest enough to cry out that the emperor has no clothes. They are called Jews.

david said...

There are more good reasons to believe in Jesus then the Jewish position. Hence the fact that you have just named 3 of the greatest minds of the times by any standard, and they all took the Christian perspective.

Cameron said...

I'm confused, you are using a comedy sketch by African American Christians (the Wayans all describe themselves as god-fearing people) as some sort of insight into secular American morality?

How does that logic work?

Also, unless my irony meter is off, the sketch is actually anti-abortion in that it equates abortion to an act of casual violence on the mother. Without question the viewer is meant to be uncomfortable with the actions of 'abortion-man'.

All in all maybe the intellectually laziest post you've ever made.

jewish philosopher said...

Cameron, apparently you’re a little old fashioned.

This is a pro-abortion video clip produced by Damon Wayans. I do not know what his religious beliefs are if any.

I would say this is a pretty fair representation of the attitude typical of secular young men today. See the comments on youtube for more details.

I would advise all the angry atheists who are fighting tooth and nail against God and the Bible to watch this and think about it a few minutes. This is what you are promoting.

Cameron said...

JP: Cameron, apparently you’re a little old fashioned.

CH: That depends on how far back you go for your fashion.

JP: This is a pro-abortion video clip produced by Damon Wayans.

CH: What makes you think it is 'pro' abortion? It seems to me the humour comes from the obviously violent means 'abortionman' uses - just as Punch and Judy puppet shows gain their humour from the completely inappropriate level of violence they inflict on each other in proportion to the conflicts they have.

JP: I do not know what his religious beliefs are if any.

CH: Then how can you claim it is secular in nature? From interviews I've seen the Wayans family is mainstream Christian.

JP: I would say this is a pretty fair representation of the attitude typical of secular young men today.

CH: Only you would take a comedy sketch and draw a conclusion from it about secular america - when there is no indication that the sketch was produced or directed at a secular audience.

JP: See the comments on youtube for more details.

CH: When did anonymous youTube commentary become synonymous with secular America? I admit to being appalled by much of it, but in no way does this necessarily represent atheism!

JP: I would advise all the angry atheists who are fighting tooth and nail against God and the Bible to watch this and think about it a few minutes. This is what you are promoting.

CH: Angry atheists promote sketch comedy skits about abortion? That seems like a pretty weak reason to leave the angry atheist camp.

jewish philosopher said...

In this clip, Mr. Wayans doesn't sound very devout.

Regarding the clip in my post, would you say this type of behavior is more common among atheists or Orthodox Jews? I think the answer is obvious. So this ultimately is what atheists are promoting. To deny that is like denying that racism promotes violence.

jewish philosopher said...

The attitudes in this video clip probably fairly accurately represent the attitudes of most secular young men today. And then you'll have some atheist come along screaming his head off because a rabbi, who has done perhaps 10,000 circumcisions in his career, may have accidentally made a few babies seriously ill. Please.

Cameron said...

JP: Regarding the clip in my post, would you say this type of behavior is more common among atheists or Orthodox Jews?

CH: I'd say that type of behaviour isn't common to anyone! Here's a clue JP, 'abortion-man' isn't real, it's a comedy sketch! And what's more, as I see it, the sketch is making fun of the young men who engage in irresponsible sex, not advocating abortion.

JP: So this ultimately is what atheists are promoting.

CH: The only thing atheists are ultimately promoting is that there are no supernatural beings. How you get from 'there is no God' to 'atheists believe in abortion-man' not only defies logic it defies gravity.

JP: The attitudes in this video clip probably fairly accurately represent the attitudes of most secular young men today.

CH: Says who? Based on what? All I see you doing is making a stereotypical generalization.

JP: And then you'll have some atheist come along screaming his head off because a rabbi, who has done perhaps 10,000 circumcisions in his career, may have accidentally made a few babies seriously ill. Please.

CH: The rabbi in question mutilates the penises of helpless children and then after sucking the wound gave them herpes - and the best you can do to defend him is to suggest that his actions are not worse than abortion?

The next time I punch someone in the face and gouge their eye out I'll be sure to mention in court that my actions were certainly no worse than how those genocidal ancient Jews behaved towards the Canaanites.

Let me add that I watched the second clip you linked to (about the pimp in St Louis who wants to break into the movie business). I didn't see anything about it to indicate he was in any way an atheist. Off-colour. Moderatley amusing. Maybe even offensive. But no godless talk anywhere.

jewish philosopher said...

Cam, you little smarty pants, I know “abortionman” is not real. I knew that even before you told me. What is real are people who are morally degenerate because they have no fear of God and no belief in God's laws. They therefore sexually take advantage of women, don't want to wear a condom because it's uncomfortable and then pressure the woman to kill her unborn child, murdering one person and ruining another for their own selfish pleasure.

That's what you and similar filthy swine (no offense) are promoting.

About the circumcision thing, the American Association of Pediatrics does not officially discourage or recommend circumcision. Regarding oral suction, no illnesses have ever been proven to have been caused by it to the best of my knowledge. If a rabbi performs as many as a hundred surgeries per month, it is not surprising that by coincidence a few children might at some point get sick with the same illness at the same time.

Cameron said...

JP: Cam, you little smarty pants, I know “abortionman” is not real.

CH: And progress is made, however small.

JP: What is real are people who are morally degenerate because they have no fear of God and no belief in God's laws.

CH: Moral degeneracy exists in the godly as much as the godless. Hitler is a good example of the godly being total bastards. Ditto for Constantine and dozens of other historical examples.

A rabbi who infects baby boys with herpes after mutilating them qualifies as morally degenerate in my books. But lets take the sexual mutilation out of the equation for a moment (something that will calm the waters between me and badrabbi as this is one area we don't see eye to eye) - surely he should have stopped performing the bris once he knew he had herpes!

JP: They therefore sexually take advantage of women, don't want to wear a condom because it's uncomfortable and then pressure the woman to kill her unborn child, murdering one person and ruining another for their own selfish pleasure.

CH: How does not believing in God make me 'want to take sexual advantage of a woman'? Beyond the way say the Polygamist Mr Jeffers and his Mormon cult do? Or the sex slave trade tacitly endorsed in the Bible and Torah?

Rape is a crime even in atheist and secular countries like China, the Czech Republic and most of Europe - and whats more there is a case for immorality of rape outside of any of 'god's laws'.

But maybe you could remind me again which commandment it is not to take sexual advantage of women? Did King David obey this commandment in your opinion? Also as badrabbi pointed out, I can't seem to find any biblical entreaty against abortion...given how often the religious oppose abortion you'd figure it would be one of the top commandments!

You know it's funny, the bible says 'though shalt not kill' but I don't see half the outrage from religious people about the killing of Muslims in Iraq by American soliders in a war of aggression than I do about abortion. For people who claim the bible and Torah as their moral compass they don't seem to be reading that compass very well.

JP: That's what you and similar filthy swine (no offense) are promoting.

CH: That's completely insane bullshit. Feel free to read any of the entries in my blog or any of my comments here and see if I have ever advocated such a position. And if you still think I do, by all means feel free to quote me.

As for your new found habit of calling me a 'filthy swine-no offense', I can only say that if your manhood is so threatened (or merely so insubstantial) that you need to insult me in such a manner and then in the same breath take it back, I'm man enough not to worry about it.

JP: Regarding oral suction, no illnesses have ever been proven to have been caused by it to the best of my knowledge.

CH: It's so easy to demonstrate you are wrong its almost not worth the effort. From Associated Press;

"February 2, 2005, 5:39 AM EST
NEW YORK -- City health officials are investigating the death of a baby boy who was one of three infants to contract herpes after a rabbi circumcised them.

Ten days after Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer performed religious circumcisions on twins last October, one died of herpes and the other tested positive for the virus, according to complaint filed by the health department in Manhattan Supreme Court."

Turns out in total he infected six infants, and as noted one of them actually died.

Which makes him a c*cksucking rabbi babykiller. His parents must be so proud.

jewish philosopher said...

Teaching people that there is no God, no soul, no afterlife, no ultimate punishment, no divine law clearly incites them to moral degeneracy. You are no different than the Catholic Church, which called Jews Christ killers for centuries, inciting immense hatred against Jews in Europe, yet refuses to take any responsibility for the Holocaust since, after all, the Vatican did not explicitly encourage it. So long as you can remove yourself a little bit, you are not responsible. I disagree.

Regarding Rabbi Fischer, again I don't believe there is any proof that he infected anyone.

Also, just by the way, I am completely against the war in Iraq. Not because I pity Iraqis (did they pity Kuwaitis?) but because we are ruining our military for nothing. Bush is an imbecile and I did not vote for him for a second term.

The "no offense" is referring to the swine. I don't want them to think I am calling them atheists or baby killers.

badrabbi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
badrabbi said...

Cam;

Great comment as always. Just for the record, though:

1. It is true that we do not agree about the practice of circumcision, but I understand and respect your point of view. In my culture, the practice is so prevalent that not having your children circumcised is socially a very big deal. The medical consequences of this practice are minor, and the long term health benefits, arguably, may be beneficial. So, I accept circumcision (like ear piercing) as a social meme.

2. Regarding the war in Iraq, I totally agree that the war was stupid and unjustified. Elsewhere I had been writing for years against this terrible American decision. I cringe each time there is another incident in Iraq. However, we are in a quagmire and I am not certain what the best way to deal with it is. There is a Cypriot saying, "a fool throws a coin in the ocean and a thousand wise men can not get it out". I think effectively Bush has thrown the American coin into the ocean that is Iraq. The question is how to extricate ourselves from there.

For the record, I was proud of the Canadian action (of quiet refusal to participate) in the war with Iraq.

3. With each post, JP grows more desperate. He knows you own him on logical grounds, and so he has taken to name calling. But both he and the readers of this blog are well aware who is right, moral and upstanding and who displays the characteristics of swine.

It is ironic that a purported orthodox Jew, who wears a yarmulke and a tefillin and prays to god 3 times a day would take to vile name calling. This orthodox Jew would do well to learn a little manners and morality from the atheist.

Cameron said...

badrabbi: Great comment as always.

CH: Thanks badrabbi!

BR: Just for the record, though:

It is true that we do not agree about the practice of circumcision, but I understand and respect your point of view.

CH: I have to admit that it is only in the last 10 years or so that my attitude about circumcision changed (and for the record, I am not circumcised). I used to think 'no big deal' and 'live and let live', but the evidence that circumcision affects sexual performance along with the movement to ban female circumcision convinced me that as a practice it was at best cosmetic and on occasion much much much worse. I'm not saying it should be banned, but I do think it's time has past.

BR: In my culture, the practice is so prevalent that not having your children circumcised is socially a very big deal. The medical consequences of this practice are minor, and the long term health benefits, arguably, may be beneficial. So, I accept circumcision (like ear piercing) as a social meme.

CH: I see it as more ethically troubling than ear piercing (that said I think kids should wait till their old enough to ask for the piercings before they get them done)

BR: Regarding the war in Iraq, I totally agree that the war was stupid and unjustified... The question is how to extricate ourselves from there.

CH: JP has made it clear that he doesn't want this to be an overtly political blog, and I respect that decision. I agree that Iraq was a bad decision (though I still defend the decision to invade Afghanistan), and I further agree that the trick is now how to leave without making things even worse. Bush is simply running the clock out - he won't increase the troops because there aren't any more, and he won't bring any home because in his mind that is an admission of defeat, and he'll further insist that the 'surge' is a success so that the GOP can blame everything on the incoming Democrats - which makes the wait until a new President (and you heard it here first it will be Obama) is inaugurated.

BR: For the record, I was proud of the Canadian action (of quiet refusal to participate) in the war with Iraq.

CH: The Chretien administration wasn't perfect by any stretch, but they did manage to get the balance on Iraq/Afghanistan/9-11 about right. They still have some explaining to do with regards to Mayer Arar and some other terrorism arrests that have gone nowhere, but otherwise the Canadian government has been able to keep its head when others have lost theirs.

BR: With each post, JP grows more desperate. He knows you own him on logical grounds, and so he has taken to name calling.

CH: I've been called a lot worse. Usually by my wife. :-)

BR: But both he and the readers of this blog are well aware who is right, moral and upstanding and who displays the characteristics of swine.

CH: I can't deny that I often use intentionally provocative language (i.e. c*cksucking rabbi babykiller - no matter how accurate, could have been toned down a little), so I can't be too sensitive when it provokes insults. Not to mention that this is his blog and he can call me and the commenters here anything he wants to.

I do wonder what is up with the whole 'you are a filthy pig - no offense' approach. I get why he wants to insult me but why insist that no offense is intended when it obviously is?

jewish philosopher said...

“Filthy swine” in an allegorical, rather than a literal, sense means a person regarded as vile, nasty, brutish and contemptible. In other words, it means someone who is extremely rude and offensive. I think that this definition does describe Cameron quite well, in the sense that he shows complete disregard for God and God’s laws while ridiculing those who do respect them. I am not necessarily trying to offend Cameron, but rather I am just trying to describe him in the clearest terms possible.

As far as “owning me logically” goes, what Cameron seems to say is that he knows that only physical, material things exist. Clearly, this knowledge is simply based on a desire to be free of any moral restrictions which religion might impose. With this premise in mind, Cam considers anything religious or spiritual to be ridiculous, delusional, dangerous, silly, outrageous, wasteful, foolish, and so and so forth. And he keeps saying this. Again and again. Month after month. There is nothing original. No dialogue. No debate. No curiosity. Nothing. Just the same long, rambling speech, over and over. Bad, if you enjoy it so much why not just print a copy sometime and read it every few hours?

Josh said...

Cam, can you explain your icon picture to me? It's been bothering me for the last year since you came here with what the heck it is.

Cameron said...

JP: As far as “owning me logically” goes, what Cameron seems to say is that he knows that only physical, material things exist.

CH: More than seems to say, it is what I say.

JP: Clearly, this knowledge is simply based on a desire to be free of any moral restrictions which religion might impose.

CH: False. Morality has nothing to do with my belief in physical materialism. I believe only in material things precisely because they are the only things that exist! Talk of spirits, Santa Claus, Zoroaster, Thor, and Yaweh all falls into the same category for me.

JP: With this premise in mind, Cam considers anything religious or spiritual to be ridiculous, delusional, dangerous, silly, outrageous, wasteful, foolish, and so and so forth.

CH: Accurate.

JP: And he keeps saying this. Again and again. Month after month. There is nothing original. No dialogue. No debate. No curiosity. Nothing. Just the same long, rambling speech, over and over.

CH: On the contrary, I typically respond directly to your foolishness on atheism; that it is a moral stance, that it is an ideology, that it is equivalent to religion, that it is linked ineluctably to evolution, that evolution is false, that modern atheists are somehow linked to Nazis and commies, etc. All nonsense you promulgate without a second thought.

Josh: Cam, can you explain your icon picture to me?

CH: It's a picture of me at a Halloween party from a few years back when I was a smoker. I moved my head inside the mask so that I could smoke through the eye opening. In truth I don't care for it much now that I'm a non-smoker (one year and counting, knock on wood) but I've never bothered to learn how to adjust my photo on my profile.

jewish philosopher said...

Cam, you always refer to what I've written, however beyond that, all your posts are really just one post. It's the same rant over and over. I'm going to delete it if you keep it up.

"I believe only in material things precisely because they are the only things that exist!"

You wish.

Cameron said...

JP: Cam, you always refer to what I've written, however beyond that, all your posts are really just one post. It's the same rant over and over. I'm going to delete it if you keep it up.

CH: I guess if you can't take the heat, you can always close down the kitchen.

JP: "I believe only in material things precisely because they are the only things that exist!"

You wish.

CH: It's not a matter of wish, it's a matter of fact. There simply is no evidence for transcendental beings - which is why they are always the subject of faith and not science. If any real evidence for supernatural beings existed there wouldn't be any debate about God at all.

jewish philosopher said...

"If any real evidence for supernatural beings existed there wouldn't be any debate about God at all."

If any real evidence for the Holocaust existed there wouldn't be any debate about it at all.


If any real evidence for the Apollo moon landings existed there wouldn't be any debate about it at all.


If any real evidence for a plane hitting the Pentagon existed there wouldn't be any debate about it at all.

Cameron said...

JP: If any real evidence for the Holocaust existed there wouldn't be any debate about it at all.

CH: So you are like Holocaust deniers.

JP: If any real evidence for the Apollo moon landings existed there wouldn't be any debate about it at all.

CH: ...and moon-landing hoaxers...

JP: If any real evidence for a plane hitting the Pentagon existed there wouldn't be any debate about it at all.

CH: ...and 9-11 truthers. Boy, that sure is some nice company you are keeping. Talk about being hoisted on your own petard.

jewish philosopher said...

Cam, think for a second. You made a point that since God is debatable, He cannot exist.

Using this logic, the Holocaust did not happen, Apollo didn't land on the moon and a plane did not hit the Pentagon.

In other words, your reason is false.

Get it now?

Rebeljew said...

I believe that abortion is the taking of life, based on the fact that if the situation were left without intervention, a baby would be born.

My cousin, who professes not to believe in deities, and who does not follow any religion, agrees with me in this matter and has even written spirited defenses of the pro-life position. My cousin also holds a full time job, does not drink or smoke, gives charity, has never divorced and has never hired a hooker or had an affair, AFAIK. He is a pretty dull guy. According to you, he is imaginary. He remains unconvinced of this.

Rebeljew said...

I think Cameron's point was that if there was solid evidence of supernatural beings, that would ipso facto be strong evidence for G-d as well. His point then is that no such solid evidence of such beings, and therefore, G-d, has ever been presented, as proven by the fact that all agree that G=d is not proven and they debate on that point. It is not just a few crazies, as the majority of people who believe in G-d in any form will admit that there is no proof. Mah sh'ain kain, the few kooks that you refer to in Holocaust denial (mainly political opponents of Jews, not historians), moon hoax (a few dippy crazies) and Loose Changers (mostly political opponents of US in general and Bush in particular, not experts in any field).

I actually agree that the issue is not that G-d is debated, but that all agree that no proof has presented. Cameron's argument over-reaches in the way it is worded. It is not because G-d is debated, but because both sides concede that there is no logical debate and no proof, only ideology. Score stands JP - 1 CH 5408.

jewish philosopher said...

"all agree that G=d is not proven"

Absolutely. In fact, all agree that nothing we have not seen personally is proven.

badrabbi said...

"Score stands JP - 1 CH 5408"

RebelJew;

I am fond of your comments and positions. And I agree that generally Cam wipes the floor with JP. Not to be too greedy here, but where did the 'one' come from?

I think that Cam's words are plain. What he is saying is that if there is any real evidence for the existence of God, there would not be the debate that we currently are having regarding his existence. Provided real evidence, people like I would accept that God exists and get on about what He wants us to do. What is so over reaching about that?

For the record, I can not remember a single point on which JP was more persuasive than Cam.

jewish philosopher said...

Bad you would never accept God exists because doing so would mean you cannot do certain things you like doing. I don't expect the ayatollahs in Iran to accept Zionism or the Holocaust.

James F. Elliott said...

When did anonymous youTube commentary become synonymous with secular America?

It didn't. Apparently the possibility that these comments are mocking escaped JP.