Thursday, September 06, 2007

In Memoriam


[the butcher Osama bin Laden, may he rot in hell forever]

In memory of the thousands of victims of Islamic violence who died on September 11, 2001, I am posting a link to an earlier post.

59 comments:

david said...

The post that was linked was very interesting, especially the comments that followed. I just think you need to be careful to what degree you denounce all Muslims on the basis of a few dispicable people.
For smeone living half a world away in Sydney it is very hard to understand how you must have felt as a New yorker witnessing these events first hand. Please do not think i would ever down play the horrible nature of the attacks the day. The truth is that there are a billion odd Muslims, I am friends with many, and I am yet to meet one that supports killing non Muslims.
Always remember that it is only by the grace of God that your not just the same as them.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

when did he die?

jewish philosopher said...

I think there's a good chance he's been dead for a year.

A said...

The headline of the provided link was very offensive to me as Muslim.
Thanks Mr Stein.

jewish philosopher said...

A, let me ask you something. You have stated that Islam is opposed to killing non-combatants. Both Osama bin Laden and Hassan Nasrallah have been responsible for the killing of non-combatants. Are religious Muslims opposed to them? Do religious Muslims wish to bring them to justice? If so, why haven’t they been arrested and turned over to American and Israeli authorities?

A said...

I don't and will not defend actions of any person. everyone pays for his actions.

I don't recognise israel as a state. it's an occupation project. illegitimate authority.
It was America who refused to take Bin Laden when Sudan offered to hand him over. read the story befoer you ask.

jewish philosopher said...

A, it's not too late! Just tell me where Osama is and I'll find a nice place for him! If he wants to die for Islam, I can help!

A said...

I really thought you are more intellegent person. is this the level of your intellectual argument?

jewish philosopher said...

A, you aren't really very good at answering questions.

A said...

Because I don't descend to this level of illetarate arguments.

Next time someone tell you, Look at Sharon, he is a Jaw, and his deeds reflects Judaism. how can you deny this after your satanism and islam article?

Ariel Sharon blew up houses on the heads of it's occupants in Qibya, I can safely say this is Satanic Judaism according to your argument?
He was found responsible for the massacre of Sabra and Shatella, he killed more than Bin laden. he is a live example of Judaism according to you.

Or does Kasztner represent Judaism? he was a Jaw participated in sending Jaws to their death for the sake of saving his own family and friends.

Bin laden represents Islam, as much as those people represent Judaism.

Those who can read and write, will tell you, learn the law from it's books, not from the actions of policemen or solicitors.
Grow up. will you

david said...

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

A, this quote strait from the Koran shows that it is the teachings of Islam to kill un believers. Unfortunately people like Bin Laden don't exactly have to try to hard to justify their hate of Christians and Jews.
I will acknowledge that Muslims I know do not support these actions what so ever. But they also don't tend to pray 5 times a day either. Reading some of what the Koran does say, I have to question wether people such as yourself or Bin Laden are the truer representation of a Koran observant Muslim.

jewish philosopher said...

You see A, I’ll tell you what disturbs me most about Islam. Osama bin Laden and Hassan Nasrallah are religious Muslims and many religious Muslims seem to support them. Why is that? Is there somewhere a large majority of religious Muslims who are anti-violence? Please tell me, where are they and who represents them. Why don’t I hear about them working with America, Israel, Russian, India, England, etc. to end all the violence of these criminal terrorists?

david said...

A, another problem is that Islam is just plain false. For example you would claim that Jesus was a prophet, if this is so he was the worst prophet is history. Both Christian and Jewish writings from eye witnesses claim that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and God. If you read the Gospels he claims repeatedly to be God. These are eye witness accounts from those who both accepted his claims and deny them. But you want to follow the claims of a fella that lived 600 years later. C.S Lewis wrote it like this in his legendary book Mere Christianity

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."

jewish philosopher said...

I have to tell you, I agree with Lewis on that.

david said...

The man is brilliant you should read his stuff, especially Mere Christianity.
It seems like A has no real response :-)

A said...

JP, I have already answered this, you have re-wareded your quesitons, as if you came with anything new..
I myself have too many questions regarding 9/11, we don't know the real events. if you know, then I have a list of questions to you.

And why does your Rabbis support killing civilians and Rape of women, do you believe they are right? and representatives of what Judaism is?

A said...

David;

The Qur'an versus is out of context, these cut and paste have distorted the meanings.
Also, it talkes about a very specific event.

In brief, Muslims were were ordered by God not to fight at all.
In that year, the were suppose to do pilgrimage in Mecca, and feared the disbelievers will attack them. what should they do if attacked?
God told the muslim Army to Fight those who fight against them, but begin not hostilities.

What is wrong with that? it talks about specific event, and the ruling was for the Muslim Army not for any one person.

The original versus is in the bottom.

As for your non observant muslim friends, I don't want to generalise, but I myself feel safer with a believer and observant of ( Though Shall Not Kill, though shall not steal... etc..) we have similar rulings in the Qur'an.
Believers will pay by law for their deeds, and God will make them pay in the day of Judgement.
with believers you have two layers of protection.

I read a story in The Bay City Times, about a man did sodomy with a dead dog.
a believer won't do this. don't fall in love with them, but at least you can trust them with your dog.


Original Qur'an versus is here:
20:190-193: “”Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (190) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place
of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. (193)””

A said...

David;
Islam is false? you won't say anything else as a non Muslim.

“Jesus was a prophet”
Yes he was.

"Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and God."

NO he didn't, and this is an open challenge to prove to me where did Jesus said I'm God.?

Paul said that about him, Paul is the one responsible for distorting christianity, he was Jesus enemy until after Jesus died. and never been one of the twelve apostles, he even abolished the ten commandments.
Lewish know nothing, he don't even know what Muslims believe in Jesus or what did the Qur'an said about him.

In the Qur'an, God told us, Jesus never claimed to be God 5:116

As a Muslim, I don't believe the Bible and the Torah we have now, is the original ones that came from God, there are omits and additions to these books , that distorted the original sacred text.
I'm not challenging you here, I'm explaining what Muslims believe. and I know you don't believe in the Qur'an as a holly text. not surprising.

Both the Bible and the Torah has professed for Muhammad. you even still have his name in the song of songs. do you read Hebrow? if so, you won't miss his name.

david said...

Where do you get the idea that the koran is even reliable? Show me some external evidence that the Koran is what it claims to be. The simple truth is that the koran doesn't make sence within it self. Christianity can show sources outside of the bible that confirm that if nothing else Jesus didn't claim to be a prophet. All eye witness accounts show that he saw him self as the Messiah, this includes those such as the Jews who rejected his claims. If Jesus was not a prophet which I think is clear, then Mohummad was not a prophet as he got very important things wrong, and Islam is false!

A said...

David;
We Muslims call Muses, (Kaleem Allah), means the one who talked to God.
This is a Noble reference, We also called Jesus Messiah, for the same reasons.

Massiah means anointed, Kings and prophets used to be anointed with oil. see (1 Kings 19:16).

David was anoitned by God. He called God my father, and first born of God.
That never made him God, he is merely a prophet, father and son means closeness to God, not literally Father and Son.

"Psalms 89:19
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
26: He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. "

In Samuel 2, 17:14, God referred to solomon as Father and Son. it never meant literal fatherhood and real son. but merely a noble reference.

Jesus did refer to himself as prophet, messenger of God.

John 17:3 " And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."


Jesus preach the Love of one and only God, and there is none other but he.

Mark 12:28-34. read it at this link: http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B41C012.htm

A said...

David;
As for the Qur'an, it is proven scientifically and historically correct and every story is very correct.

Take the great flood story in the Qur'an.
Noah was sent to his tribe only, and the flood DIDNT happen on all earth, which is compatible with History. unlike the Hollybook story, and he didn't come 6 thousand years ago!!!

The Egyption civilization has been flourishing before and after the 6 thousand years, they didn't drawn 6 thousand years ago?

The chinese civilization didn't cease to exist/ restarted 6 thousand years ago?

The Qur'anic narration of the Flood is Correct.

In the stroy of exudus in the Qur'an, God told us the pharaoh and his army chased Moses.

The Pharaoh and his army drowned, and God saved the Pharaoh's body, (not mentioned in the holly book).

Egyptionists identified the Pharaoh of Moses as Merneptah, the son of Ramsis the second.
His body was discovered in 1898, and you can see him in the Egyptian Museum.

In fact, every scientific and historic element in the Qur'an has been checked and verified as correct.
read it in details here :

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/default.htm

david said...

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

First of all these verses from the Gosple of John show that Jesus taught he was the ony way to Eternal life.
Secondly The Koran is not correct in all of its stories. It is full of tories from the so called gnostic Gospels that were written 200 years or so after Christ. What about the claim that Ishmael was the son that Abraham was to sacrifice, even though the Genesis account says it was Issac?
What about this rubbish that the Torah and Gospels have been tampered with? The dead sea scrolls show that Hebrew scripture was as it is today at least 300 years before Christ.
I do not understand how you can honestly accept the Koran, writen as far as I can tell after Mohammed was even dead, over the 1600 years of eyewitness testemony the Bible has.

david said...

A, how can you know the Koran is preserved if the previous revelations aren't? Why do you keep quoting bible verses if you don't believe it has been preserved. And why is your God so weak that he cannot stop his revelation from being tampered with? Where did your supposedly all powerful God, Just God get the will and the power from to preserve the Koran and why was he unjust enough and laking power to preserve the Gospels and Torah as you claim he reveled them?

jewish philosopher said...

A, regarding rabbis permitting the killing of civilians, perhaps you are referring to this article.

I believe that all modern weapon systems have the potential to kill civilians as well as soldiers. The only exception would be snipers, who aim at a specific individual target. Otherwise all modern weapons are designed to inflict causalities on a large area, which often unavoidably includes non-combatants. Have Islamic leaders banned the use of aerial bombs, mortars, land mines, grenades, automatic rifles and artillery? How does Pakistan plan on making use of nuclear weapons without harming civilians? Please explain this to me.

About September 11, 2001, I know a lot about it. I was in New York that day.

A said...

David;
I quote from the bible, because it's common language between us, I don't believe all is genuine, neither I reject all of it.

Jesus never claimed to be God, and these versus didn't prove otherwise, unless you mean Son of God, and only born have literal meanings here, if so, David is God as well according to my earlies quote?

Believers will know God and have eternity through following the religion of God, observe his recommendations and obey his messenger.

Jesus told the apostles:
Mattew 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Also, when asked about the date of Judgement, he said this:

Mark: 11:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Ask any christian if Jesus knew when is the day of Judgement, if he said yes, he contradicts his bible, if no, then Jesus can't be God.

The Qur'an is correct, and never been taken from any book.
Gnostic Gospels have been discovered only in 1945, written in 3 languages, and never translated to Arabic to my best knowledge, how did Muhammad read them 14000 years before?

Muhammad was illiterate, and Jewish religion prevents Jews from teaching religion to gentiles, any Jewish teaches a gentile deserves death. how did Muhammad got the knowledge then?

Take the creation, we never believed God created light before the sun and stars, the creation happened in 6 days, and God told us the day is not 24 hours earthly days.. but each day could be thousands and thousands of years.
Take the great flood story, the exodus, the Qur'anic version was always correct, how come Muhammad took only the correct details?

Take the details about the rotation of the earth, movements of the Sun, the Sun as a source of light, while the moon reflects the light, the lack of Oxygen on high altitude...etc, every scientific detail in the Qur'an is correct, read it in the book above.

The fact of the matter, these books came from the same source, God. and the qur'an was preserved, unlike the others.

Forget about all that, The book I gave you it's link earlier, compares the same stories in the Bible, Torah, and Qur'an, there isn't a single mistake in the Qur'an, compared with too many in the other books. Muhammad couldn't possibly have taken anything from the Holybook.

The Deas sea scrolls, doen't match the Holybook? almost every book about the DSSs take up the differences and compare them. There is a book called The Other Bible, based on the DSSs ??

Who was intended to be sacrificed?
well one book said it's Ismail, and all it's other stories were correct.
The other said it's Issac and incorrect details appears from page one onwards.. it's up to you to decide which source is more reliable.

Eye witnesses? what are their names please?
An eye witness comes to the court, and say God created light before the sun, will be persecuted for perjury no doubt.

Qur'an was preserved because God choose to preserve it.
Why other books were tampered with?

If intended, it's a crime, and a great sin. It happened the same reason the Holocaust took place, for the same reasons Stalin killed millions of believers, for the same reason John the Baptist was decapitated. for the same reason some children get sexually violated..

That proves one thing, the great need for a day of Judgement. when justice will be restored. and victims will be vindicated.

God gave us a choice and law, if the law violated by choice, there will be a price for it.

Had God chooses to enforce his justice, then no punishment, and no rewards.

The good man, is what God made him, and the villain play the rule God choose for him, had neither had free will. then no reward deserved, no punishment is just. no need for the day of Judgement all together.

A said...

JP;
I intended to ask, not to debate, and you can choose not to answer if you wish.

The article you referred to, is one of the stories, along with others.
What if the civilians were Jews? is there restrictions then?
what about Rape? it was referred to in some Jewish studies in Kidushin 21b.
again, no intimidation intended, I aplogize if you didn't like the question, and you can leave it if you wish.

As I understand things, Weapons aren't banned, only targeting civilians is. that means carpet bombings is not acceptable, when you can send your tanks and soldiers to do the job.

Pakistani weapons is a deterrent, do you believe then can use it? W of MD be used against them had they not had it in my opinion.

9/11,
This is one article
http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2893860.ece

And what is the israeli link to 9/11 if any? as been reported by Fox news here:
http://100777.com/usa/israeli_spyring

jewish philosopher said...

I think it is understood that every government has the right to use whatever means are necessary to protect its own citizens against aggression. For example, the United States used carpet bombing and nuclear bombing in the Second World War in order to spare the lives of our own soldiers. The United States military routinely uses artillery to level enemy cities which refuse to surrender. Do Islamic countries use different methods? I hadn't heard that.

Of course, if soldiers would separate themselves from civilians and allow themselves to be killed safely that would be much nicer; however in most cases soldiers will not cooperate.

About 9/11, the details of any historical event will always remain a little unclear, however most people believe that Muslims were involved.

Kiddushin 21a talks about sex between Jewish soldiers and enemy women. Sex is not the same as rape. I also believe that was only applicable in Biblical times.

david said...

A, The eye witnesses are the authors of all 4 Gospels, Peter and Jesus brother James. All of them have contributed to the New Testament amd all proclaim Jesus as the Messiah and as the Son of God. This is hard for a Muslim to understand in the way Christians do because you reject the Trinity. You then assume that Jesus was talking about being a prophet. But Jesus did things that God only could do such as forgive sins. He never denies that he is God. So as I said earlier he was either Lord Liar on Lunatic.
I would also like to know how Muhammed knew he was getting his revelation from God and not Satan. What test did he apply? Satan too would have a great understanding of Science. Why should I believe a man who had political motivations over many people who gained nothing during their lives from the message they spread?

david said...

Biblical proof that Jesus is God

Historical Jesus

Problems with the koran

Was Muhammed a true prophet?

badrabbi said...

David;

I am reviewing your links. Your "biblical proof that Jesus is god" is patently absurd. Stand back and read your own link from the perspective of one who requires proof.

If we used your standards and applied it to your other link "was muhhammed a true prophet?", not only we would have to admit that he was a prophet, we would have to say that he was the grand son of God!

jewish philosopher said...

Bad, what I am noticing is that everyone seems to have brainwashed themselves in their own way.

I can ask questions to atheists, Christians and Muslims, receive nonsensical replies and when I point this out, I am met with astonishment that I am so closed-minded that I don’t understand clear logic.

badrabbi said...

Not me, JP. But if you believe it applies to me, I would appreciate an example.

A said...

JP:
Thank you for the answer, although I don't agree.

If you meant me by your comments below, I aplogize.
No offence intended.

I like to share the piece below with you, see how people with big ideas predict things.

http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2007/08/christopher-hitchens-is-not-great.html

jewish philosopher said...

I don't know if we've gone into anything that much yet. But I do find it remarkable the similar attitude I find in all different idealogies. I would have to say I am Jewish because I haven't yet found this kind of twisted logic over here.

A said...

David,
I'm not sure if you are serious, why should the message be attributed to any other than God specially when considering advanced scientific facts in the Qur'an.
There were several prophecies in the Qur'an that took place later, such as predicting the triumph of the Romans within 10 years after they have been defeated. the Romans won the war 8 years later.

Also the creation of Israel in Palestine, was in the Qur'an 1400 years before it happen.

The promise Muhammad made to a man, that he will be given the gold of Kisra, the Persian king, at the very beginning of Islam, and the highest power of persia..
In less than 25 years later, Muslims defeated the persians and the Gold was given to the promised man.

If the Devil know the future as well as advance scientific and history knowledge, then you left nothing special for God.

JESUS,
Catholic pope and priests forgive sins, also many profits did miracles and brought dead to life, this is no special to jesus and doesn't make him God.

There are too many cases in the Bible where Jesus said things that no one understood, How can you trust what is told about him then, specially when it contradicts what Jesus said about himself or the message he is delivering?

John 1: 18: No man hath seen God at any time.

Many people saw Jesus, then he can't be God according to the above.

John 2:13, Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
He meant his body, people thought he meant the temple, it was only after he has risen when the disciples knew what he meant.
Similar misunderstanding cases in John 3, and John 11:11.

Also in Matt 11:15-18, the disciples didn't understand him and Jesus blamed them and said to Peter "Are ye also yet without understanding?"

This is how trustworthy and understanding the Eyewitnesses you referred to can be.

The Trinity, is the weakest thing in Christianity, it has found it's way into christianity through the Romans, who reviewed the religion and included the old Egyptian old religion.

for Example,
There was Christ, who was born from the virgin on the 25th of December, he exchanged with the God Father in a trinity of nature, and was crusified, then risen to heaven. his mother is Mary, he father is Jo-Seph, Baptized at age of 30, by Anup the Baptiser... etc....

No this wasn't Jesus, it was Horus, the old Egyptian God. and I first learnt about him during a holiday in Egypt 3 years ago. read more here
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm.

A said...

JP: I'm not here for long, Work is really hitting me,
so I don't think we will get that far over here.

david said...

A, Lets take one example That you list from the New Testament, and must therefore accept as not being tampered with;

John 2:13, Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
He meant his body, people thought he meant the temple, it was only after he has risen when the disciples knew what he meant.

If what you say is accurate and I agree that it is, then Jesus was either killed and raised in which case the Koran is wrong in claiming Jesus died on the cross. Or he did mean the real temple, was killed and never re built the temple in which case he would be a faulse prophet.
Priests do not forgive sins, if you sin against God only God can forgive you. If you stole my car then what use would it be for JP to forgive you, I would be the one you had sinned against.
You reject the Idea that the revelations came from Satan, I would like to ask again what reason Muhammed had to know that?

Bad, I would not expect you to accept my my previous posts. You don't accept the New Testament and from what I can tell don't accept the Old Testament either. If you have already rejected the texts that Christian doctrine is based on then quoting them will never impress you. If you think my proofs were a weak attempt then try proving that Jesus was not the Messiah to a Christian, or that Muhammed was not a prophet to a Muslim.

A said...

David;

The links you copied is not new to me
There are so many staff on the internet, targeting unsuspected believers with little knowledge about their religions. I've been through so much that I can say nothing in it new to me.

In 90% of cases, the claims are very weak, that can be dismissed by the slightest knowledge of religion, the other 10% needs some knowledge in the religion.

For example, there was a site, claiming the Jewish God is a pedophile, and the evidence is the scripture about God choosing the virgins for himself. and daughters of God .. etc..
we know, chosen means blessed by God, not literally what they would go for.

The Qur'an has already been scrutinized and facts checked and established, ages ago. take any claim about the Qur'an against the explanation of the book and you will reject it yourself.

An example, is the claim that God said at the tongue of Muhammad, ‘If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss;
The claim is If Muhammad go astray, then all Muslims will be misled.

The fact of the matter, Muhammad was in a tribe, and the tribal traditions was and still very strong.
The Quraish tribe, used to wrong him for straying from the religion of his fathers and grandfathers.

And these versus respond to this claim, ( If I as one of this tribe, strayed from your tribal religion, then I'm the loser, why would you bother)
and he attributed all good guidance to the right path to God. the way we muslims always do. this is similar to your pray when you eat bread.

The versus Never meant, if I preach the wrong religion, NEVER. but this site tried to twist the meaning to their own interests.

It's similar to the first versus you quoted few days earlier, the versus were distorted compared with the ones in the Qur'an.
I.E, they inserted the words ( in their unbelief) which is not in the Qur'an to change the meaning.

The claims about Muhammad are completly unfounded.
Whatever they would say about Muhammad, just compare to the following:

In the 1st Kings 13:11. We have a story about a prophet, God told him not to eat bread.
a second prophet, lied to him as said God sent his angle to me to say you should eat.
when the first prophet ate, the result was his death.

What worse can happen? a prophet lied to another prophet and delivered his lie as a message from God. which resulted in violation of Gods orders, and the death of a prophet.
Neither of those prophets had his prophecy revoked. read the story in (1st Kings 13:11).

Muhammad prophecy never been revoked no matter what they would come up with.

A said...

David,
it's almost 2:20 in the moring here in Britain, and I really have to sleep for my early work tomorrow.
but a quick response.
Jesus had an attempt against him, and they thought they have killed him but God told us in the Qur'an he saved him from their hands, and God took his life and he had risen to God.
How? we don't know. but he never been crucified, but they thought they did.

one of the stories that I can't verify, is that when the apostle told about him to the Romans, the army sent him to the cave to see if Jesus is there, he went in, and went back to say yes he is Jesus, by that time God changed the traitor's face to look like Jesus, and there he was punished for his deed.

The Bible also has so much evidence conflicts with the idea of being crucified.

We muslims have many stories about the Devil in the Qur'an, that you won't take it as a non Muslim.
In brief, There are many creatures of the same species of Devil , some of them are believers, and followed Muhammad religion. their stories have been mentioned in the Qur'an.
God has protected Muhammad from the Devil, and the revelation can't be tampered with,
if you want to believe in the Qur'an, then this is part of the Qur'an, if not, then nothing substantial can be brought to convince you otherwise.

we have stories about the Devil in the narrated Muhammad sayings, but almost all are the weak narrated things, that we muslims reject, but as we Muslims keep every thing, you can still see these stories.

We have special books deals with the fabricated and wrong and stories attributed to Muhammad and muslims... etc..., these books collected and saved by Muslims for special studies, long story to be explained here. but these books became a source for those attacking islam, but they don't fool Muslims.

It's similar to Barnaba bible, that was discovered in the middle age, and christians always rejected it. although it's still in circulation.

Also, if you are a christian, then all your sins are forgiven, according to Paul, and Paul is not God.

david said...

A, firstly Paul never claims to forgive sinsin his own name, He simply tells us that our sins can be forgiven through Christ.
I absolutely agree when you say that I would reject the Koran when it is in Conflicty with the Bible, generaly speaking every one needs alot of proof to change their minds on issues of religion.
I personally find it hard to accept that Jesus didn't claim to be God. Not only because the Bible records what he says, but also the fact that Jewish writings tell us he was Crucified for it.
To say he survived seems a bit far fetched, and the Biblical records fit what modern medicine would expect if he died on the cross. As for his face being changed it is certainly within Gods power, but the Bible also records Jesus risen with all the holes still in tact.

By the way as an Aussie talking to a Brit I would love to know what you thought of the last Ashes :-)

jewish philosopher said...

A, thanks for the link about Hitchens. Anyone who takes that drunk seriously probably has a few problems of his own.

badrabbi said...

David;

I do not "reject" any book. I just think that God authored none of these books. All books are vulnerable to our logical scrutiny. And all religious books fall short in terms of historical accuracy and felicity to truth.

If you wish to prove to me that Jesus was the son of man, then you need to show the following: Find Joseph and Mary's DNA, and show that Jesus had Mary's but not Joseph's DNA. You also would have to somehow show that Jesus shared God's DNA!

But think about it for a minute: Mary was married at the time of Jesus’ birth. There is, to my knowledge, no indication that the marriage was not consummated. Why would a reasonable person think that Jesus was not a product of Joseph and Mary? Mathew admits as much when he recounts the lineage of Joseph. Evidently, according to the gospel of Mathew, the lineage of Kind David leads directly to Joseph, proving the prophecy that Messiah would be a descendant of King David. But that would only be true if Joseph was Jesus’ father! What happened to God being Jesus’ father?

A said...

David;
Jesus also forgave sins through God, as he already brought dead to life through God .

Jesus had an authorization from God to forgive sins, and do miracles.

In Matt: 9:3-8, a strory about a paralized man brought to Jesus, he told him to have courage and his sins are forgiven, scribes denied it and said only God can forgive.
Jesus said he had the authority to forgive sins. and proved it by curing the man. then the bible tell us the following:

"Mat 9:8: But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men."

These things always attributed to God; if you read the story when Jesus brought dead to life, he thanked God for giving him the power to do the miracle.

Also, believers called Gods in Psalms:82:6, and John 10:34. , and angles referred to as Gods in numerous locations.

Jews as eye witnesses didn't understood him in may cases, and they also accused him of being affected by Satan.

Sorry to disappoint you, I don't watch cricket, I'm one of those don't know who won. how embarrassing.

david said...

Bad, I think rejecting any degree of divine authorship for the Bible is rejecting it, certainly in the manner I was refering to. It is a shame that the level of proof you would require is impossible, I have a feeling that if I could show you Marys DNA and not Josephs in Jesus you would still doubt there was no Earthly father.

A, It's most likely a good thing that you didn't see the cricket, is was a bit of a poor effort from the Poms.
As for the rest of your post, with out accepting the Trinity it would be hard to see how Christians take example such as you have sighted. The idea in short is that God lowered himself to human form in the person of Jesus Christ. To do so he had to give up much of his Glory and power in order to be tempted and ultimately killed for our Sins. So these examples are of God the son refering to God the father. As I said unless you accept the Trinity you would disagree.
As for Jewish eye witnesses, they didn't understand all of what Jesus said and did at the time, in that your absolutely correct. But they still recorded it, and in light of the ressurection it all became clearer. I also doubt Jesus could be to obvious given his purpose. Had he made it overwhelmingly obvious that he was God, he would have been worshiped and not killed. Given that he came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sin, being noticed as God by everyone would have lead to Gods plan failing.

A said...

David;
If we are to go on the trinity, we would take long time. and it serves no purpose in my opinion, The bible contains very strong evedence against the Trinity.
However, you have the right to believe what you want. and if you want to read more about it. then review the origin of this theology and how come it find it's way to christianity.

You said Jewish witnesses didn't understand him, but still recorded the events, and Jesus didn't make it clear he was God.

well, I'm happy we agreed on this at last. Then attributing things to Jesus can't be presented as an evidence when it contradicts what he explicitly said in other places in the Bible.

Good night mate, My Aussie hero is John Pilger. his last film ( War on democracy) was more than excellent.

badrabbi said...

"I have a feeling that if I could show you Marys DNA and not Josephs in Jesus you would still doubt there was no Earthly father."

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs. You are saying that God came down, had some kind of intercourse with a married woman, and the product of this union was Jesus Christ. The following questions come to mind:

1. Why would God be cavorting with a married woman?

2. What proof do you have of Mary's virginity? More importantly, why is Mary's "immaculate conception" important? Would Jesus be any less holy if he were the product of Mary's Maculate conception?

3. Is God in the habit of producing children? What prompted God to bring his own son to the world?

When an enormous claim is made, namely of a miraculous conception of a virgin but married woman procreating, giving rise to God, I submit that an enormous amount of proof is needed. Pointing to a book and picking a verse here and there just doesn't cut it.

badrabbi said...
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badrabbi said...

One more thought:

The almighty God takes the unusual step of producing a son. Then he allows his son to be beaten mercilessly. What for? So that our sins can be forgiven? Couldn't he simply have forgiven our sins without seeing his son beaten and crucified? Why would he require a sacrifice, or his son no less, to be able to forgive?

Suppose you were upset at your co-workers. You want to lash out at them. Instead, you go home and beat the living day lights out of your only child in order that you can forgive your co-workers! Does that make any sense? Does that not define an abusive father?

You would worship something like that?

david said...

Bad, I don't know why God would choose this method of salvation. If your asking that then, there are a million other questions to ask, like why allow evil and sin in the first place, or why allow so many people believe so many different faiths such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam if only one can be true. The truth is that we do not know why things were done as they were.
So far as would I want to worship this God, absolutely. Think of the Love for humanity that God would come and suffer like that for us. And if he is God and there is eternal bliss waiting for him apon death, then what is the issue.
So far as believing some of the claims of the Bible, I will freely admit many of them cannot be tested. For me I believe them on the strength of the evidence for what can be tested. Luke who wrote the gospel and the Acts has been shown very accurate in records of Geography, political leaders and the architecture of the time. I then see him as a reliable source and trust his accounts of things that we can no longer check for ourselves.

Jon said...

what about Yeshua (joshua) and all the non-combatens he kiled!!! (as ordained by God!)

jewish philosopher said...

The answer to that is: that was then, this is now. The war against the Canaanites was a onetime event. It did not serve as a prototype for Jewish behavior in the future.

badrabbi said...

David Said:

"Bad, I don't know why God would choose this method of salvation. If your asking that then, there are a million other questions to ask"

LOL, David, there are indeed a million questions that can be asked that seem to undermine your religion. That there are no good answers should give you a clue that your faith is seriously flawed!

"why allow evil and sin in the first place"

This is the question that seems to undermine all assertions that "god is all good". If god is alive and all good, then evil and sin undermine his goodness. You owe it to yourself to answer this question.

"or why allow so many people believe so many different faiths such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam if only one can be true"

You ask good questions. It behooves you to ask them and attempt to answer them. An atheist's answer is that these questions lend testimony to the crock that a given religion is.

"The truth is that we do not know why things were done as they were."

The real truth is that the things done are incompatible with the notion of an all good god.

"So far as would I want to worship this God, absolutely."

Ok, but you do so knowing full well that the supposed god that you are worshipping is chuck full of contradictions and logical gaps.

"Think of the Love for humanity that God would come and suffer like that for us."

You have yet to exaplain why, if he were God, he would have to suffer at all? Why couldn't he simply have waved a wand and forgive our sins? Why is His suffering a necessary ingredient to His firgiveness? Whom is he trying to impress? For one, I am not impressed!

badrabbi said...

David;

Regarding your testable parts of the bible, I refer you to the internet, where thousands of claims of the bible have been presented and shown to be incorrect. Remember, for the bible to be proven to be written by someone other than god, all one has to do is show one (ONE) factual error.

badrabbi said...

JP,

Re "The answer to that is: that was then, this is now. The war against the Canaanites was a onetime event. It did not serve as a prototype for Jewish behavior in the future."

OK, so please also abandon your shabbats, your eruvs, your phylacteries, your sheytels, and your anscient beliefs as "that was then and this is now".

Or will you be picking and choosing what to keep and what to abandon?

jewish philosopher said...

"Or will you be picking and choosing what to keep and what to abandon?"

I don't pick, the Talmud does.

david said...

Bad, the Bible was not written by God, not in the way that a Muslim would say the Koran was. It is a collection of human documents that were inspired by God.
So far as the hard questions that I face as a Christian go, mine is by no means the only faith with these issues. I would put it to you that as an Atheist you have to answer just as many. Is suffering more acceptable to you if there is no God? How did the world get here? If the Big bang really happened, and there is no God to cause it, where did all the initial matter come from and how did it become so ordered as to allow the Bib bang? If evolution is real why is there no real fossil record, and why aren't we seeing it happen in animals that reproduce hundreds of generations within our life times?
The truth is that no set of beliefs are without tough questions. I don't think for a second that it helps to ignore them, or to assume that a couple of hard questions that you can't answer straight away should lead you to abandon your faith.

badrabbi said...
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badrabbi said...

"Bad, the Bible was not written by God"

Ask JP who wrote the bible. He will tell you that it was given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai, straight from the heavenly presses.

"It is a collection of human documents that were inspired by God"

Religious types talk about "inspired by God". I would love for someone to explain what exactly this means. Are my writings inspired by God?

"I would put it to you that as an Atheist you have to answer just as many."

OK, so I have asked a number of questions, and you, instead of taking the time to answer them, have decided that it is better if you asked me some questions. OK, I am ready:

"Is suffering more acceptable to you if there is no God?"

Suffering is a bad thing. It is bad regardless of whether there is God. But that is not the point. If God is good, and he controls things, then there aught not be suffering. That there is, undermines his goodness. That is what we are saying, sir. Does that answer your question?

"If the Big bang really happened, and there is no God to cause it, where did all the initial matter come from and how did it become so ordered as to allow the Bib bang?"

It is interesting that you have placed me as the authority to defend scientific theories. I know very little about the big bang, despite having taken a class on it. The fact is that the so-called "big bang" theory is a scientific guess as to the happenings moments after the existence of the universe. It is not known where the initial matter came from.

But does it vindicate you for me to say that I do not know where initial matter came from? Must I have a ready made explanations for every aspect of a given scientific hypothesis? Keep in mind that “big bang” theory is really unrelated to atheism; the former gives one possible explanation to the evolution of the universe whereas the latter simply states that there does not appear to be a god who benevolently created everything. If we woke up one morning to find the “big bag” theory scientifically debunked, this would do nothing to the issue of theism versus atheism.

But while we are on the subject, can you explain where the material came from to make God's existence possible? If you can ask where the initial matter came from, can I ask where God's material come from? If a lack of explanation as to where initial matter came to exist undermines atheism, does the lack of explanation as to where god came from undermine theism?

"If evolution is real why is there no real fossil record, and why aren't we seeing it happen in animals that reproduce hundreds of generations within our life times?"

Again, thank you for asking me, an atheist, to explain a scientific hypothesis unrelated to atheism. Why must I as an atheist be in a position to discuss evolution? What does the theory of evolution have to do with the fact that there is no Jesus as the son of God?

But I will indulge you, as I know a little about the theory of evolution. These are the answers to your questions:
1. There is a 'real fossil' record aplenty! There is a remarkable number of fossils testifying to the fact that is evolution. Please open a book and you will see example after example of the fossil record indicating previous species that are related to the present ones today. Speciation is documented in the fossil record and the evidence is solid.

I think what you are asking is why there are gaps within the evolutionary process as depicted in the fossil record. This has many answers, most of which are technical and do not undermine the theory at all. If you like, I can supply you with sources where the issues are well discussed and dealt with.

2. Your question as to why we are not seeing evolution happen in animals is interesting. It reminds me of the fellow who was looking for the forest amidst the trees. Look around you: in the streets – there are literally hundreds of dog species, each of which has been bred for various traits. A Labrador retriever is very different from a Shitsu. All this occurred within the past few hundred years. It is not hard to imagine that soon a poodle and a St. Bernard will not be able to interbreed, ie., speciation. The examples of evolution in our times abound. Again, I encourage you to pick up a book on evolution. You will see hundreds of examples of evolution in action.

"The truth is that no set of beliefs are without tough questions."

Perhaps, but one has an obligation to attempt to deal with them. I have attempted to deal with yours. Can you answer mine?

"...that a couple of hard questions that you can't answer straight away should lead you to abandon your faith."

LOL, ok, a couple of tough questions would not do it. Would, say 10 tough ones be enough? 100? 1000?

What will it take for you to take a second look at your "faith"?

david said...

God gave the Law to Moses on Siani, however what about the Psalms, the Prophets, or the Gospels. When I say inspired by God I am talking about what you find in these. We see some things that are clearly humans recording events historicaly, and others that could only be prophesies or commands from God.

Does suffering undermine Gods goodness, I dont think so. It really depends on why he allows it. I would first say that good is defined by Gods Character. What if he sees that suffering and sin are the down side of something that he sees as increadably important, such as free will. If we are created in His image, and He has a real ability to choose then it follows He would want us to have that same ability.
Many things that cause pain and suffering also can cause great pleasure, and I think that most suffering comes from a perversion of the good things God has given us. For example food, every body needs food to live and enjoys well cooked dishes. On the flip side those who have very little or no food suffer intence hunger and can often die from malnutrition. So does it undermine God that much of the world is starving, NO. He has given us more that enough food to go around, it is a result of human choice, not an unproviding God, that most of the worlds food goes to people in Australia, North America and Western Euroupe. If humans are really so upset with starvation in Asia and Africa then we have the resources provided to us to feed these people, we just don't.
Sould God forgive your sins by waving his magic wand? WHY? You rebel against what he tells you to do. In fact you reject the way He has given you to gain forgiveness and reject his existence. Why does this God have an obligation to conform to what you want him to be. He created you and sets the rules, that you disobey them is your choice. Why is it then on God to say its ok, you spent your life rejecting and disobeying me, you never once indicated that you wanted forgiveness but I will forgive you anyway. He is justifyed in saying your going to hell. But if you look at the Christian idea of hell and forget the common images, Hell is simply a place where God is not. So if you die tomorrow, and find that God is real, and then get sent to Hell, you are only getting what you want. Having spent your life rejecting His existence and living a life that doesn't want God, he will simply say fine, and send you to where he will not be. So even this is God showing a respect for humans free will, showing as far as I am concerned that evil is again a real human choice.